Are we devaluing the iTrader system?

opinion...

Being a long time internet user, a frequent buying and seller on craigslist, a frequent buyer and occasional seller on eBay, I think my opinion might be useful.

How long as this forum been online with a WFS forum trading cues and other items? I don;t know but I suspect the answer is YEARS.

How many issues of a "I'll take it" and then no transaction occurs have happened? My guess is not that many. I'm sure there's a lot of I'm interested, I'm seriously interested, etc - But I bet after someone says they will take it, they are serious and MOST of those transactions occur, without much issue.

Adding in feedback about potential transactions to the iTrader system will ruin it. Period. That's not what its for.
 
I'm saying exactly what I've been saying. If we have negative feedback for backing out of deals it doesn't affect you in the least. But it does help the significant portion for whom keeping your word is important. Benefits many, doesn't affect the rest at all. Figuring out what we should do here sure doesn't seem to be rocket science to me.

And I'm saying what I've been saying, we could do this all day.
Don't denigrate the Itrader system for deals that never happened.
If the serial flakes really bother you that much, then you should call them out.
We already know about Zhou and the guy Nick Serdula called out, who else is out there saying "I'll take it" all the time.
 
How many issues of a "I'll take it" and then no transaction occurs have happened? My guess is not that many.

Adding in feedback about potential transactions to the iTrader system will ruin it. Period.

Your guess is wrong. It happens all the time. But even if it were just one, that one deserves a negative iTrader because that is important to a lot of people. And it doesn't affect the people that it isn't important to. Care to explain how iTrader will be "ruined" because of it? I've already explained in previous posts how it actually make it better for a lot of people, and the rest are not affected at all.
 
Don't denigrate the Itrader system for deals that never happened.

How does this "denigrate" anything? It helps a lot of people, and doesn't affect the rest at all.

There just isn't any logical reason to be against it unless you are one of the people who is an offender, and don't want people to have a way to know so they can treat you differently because of it. And no, I'm not accusing you of being an offender. You might just not be using any logic instead. But it is one or the other.
 
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How does this "denigrate" anything? It helps a lot of people, and doesn't affect the rest at all.

There just isn't any logical reason to be against it unless you are one of the people who is an offender, and don't want people to have a way to know so they can treat you differently because of it. And no, I'm not accusing you of being an offender. You might just not be using any logic instead. But it is one or the other.

What a cheap shot artist you are
Post it up
 
What a cheap shot artist you are
Post it up

Where is the cheap shot? Post what up? You aren't even making sense. There is no logic to having your position, unless you are an offender. I am not calling you an offender. I don't know you or your history enough to know if you are or aren't. But I do know that you either have to be one, or you have to be a non-offender who just isn't using logic. Sounds like maybe you just aren't using logic. For those that are not offenders, it will not affect you in any way to have negative for backing out of deals, but it will be valuable information for all those for whom keeping your word is important. Where are the draw backs for the non-offenders if we have negative for backing out of deals? There aren't any.
 
Where is the cheap shot? Post what up? You aren't even making sense. There is no logic to having your position, unless you are an offender. I am not calling you an offender. I don't know you or your history enough to know if you are or aren't. But I do know that you either have to be one, or you have to be a non-offender who just isn't using logic. Sounds like maybe you just aren't using logic. For those that are not offenders, it will not affect you in any way to have negative for backing out of deals, but it will be valuable information for all those for whom keeping your word is important. Where are the draw backs for the non-offenders if we have negative for backing out of deals? There aren't any.



Who are all the guys making it a "habit" to back out of deals, and who is stupid enough to deal with all of these known offenders?
 
Who are all the guys making it a "habit" to back out of deals, and who is stupid enough to deal with all of these known offenders?

The fact that you don't know who they are proves exactly why we need the negative iTrader feedback so there is a way to know. Thanks for making my case.

Now can you imagine if it were somebody besides you that doesn't spend much time in the wanted/for sale section? They would really need a way to know who they were. Even people like you that spend a ton of time there don't know everybody that is doing it or how much, much less the guy that doesn't spend his life in there.

It is good information for those that care, and for those that don't, it doesn't affect you in any way whatsoever. Only an offender has a reason to not want the offenders recognized.
 
Poolplaya9,

It doesn't happen all the time. No way no how. When it does happen it sucks.

I've sold 100's of items on the internet over the years.

I've had plenty of people tell me they were interested, even more low ball me to death.. But I've never had someone tell me they would take an item and then back out of the deal. Never.

I know it happens, but there's LITTLE harm, if any, from someone saying they would buy an item and then backing out. It's a hassle for the seller, but if he/she was selling something that many people wanted it's going to sell, period.

I will agree, its obnoxious, but its so far from needing negative feedback its not even worth taking this much time to talk about IMO.

iTrader feedback, much like eBay feedback, should be for completed transactions. Where there was an actual commitment and people sent things, and you got the wrong thing, or didm;t get paid, or you paid and didm;t receive goods, or it took a month instead of a few days to receive payment, etc.

That, and the fact that this particular user has several successful transactions here leads me to believe strongly that there's a reason he's not here, and it was NOT to screw with the seller.
 
The fact that you don't know who they are proves exactly why we need the negative iTrader feedback so there is a way to know. Thanks for making my case.

Now can you imagine if it were somebody besides you that doesn't spend much time in the wanted/for sale section? They would really need a way to know who they were. Even people like you that spend a ton of time there don't know everybody that is doing it or how much, much less the guy that doesn't spend his life in there.

It is good information for those that care, and for those that don't, it doesn't affect you in any way whatsoever. Only an offender has a reason to not want the offenders recognized.


I'm leaving negative Itrader for the next guy who posts "nice cue, GLWS"
I'm definitely leaving negative Itrader for the next guy who bumps his thread to tell the world that the cue is sold.
You don't even want to know what I'm going to do to the next guy that asks me questions like "whats the balance point" "how much does the weight bolt weigh" and my all time favorite "is that Mexican bacote"
 
It doesn't happen all the time. No way no how. When it does happen it sucks.
It happens pretty often. You have had good luck, as have I. But again, how often it happens is really immaterial to either side of the argument. Many people find it unacceptable, and it should receive negative. Those that do not find the info to be pertinent do not have to use it. Nobody is going to force you to not deal with someone that has negative iTraders for backing out of deals. It doesn't affect you.

I know it happens, but there's LITTLE harm, if any, from someone saying they would buy an item and then backing out.
There is harm, and I've laid it out in previous posts. It can actually cost you money on top of hassle, and could even keep some people from paying their own bills as a result of the delays.

iTrader feedback, much like eBay feedback, should be for completed transactions.
It should be for any agreement between two people for a sale. It used to be that way on Ebay as well I believe. They changed that for business reasons, not because it was the right way to do things.

Where there was an actual commitment
There is an actual committment the moment somebody says "I'll take it" or "it's yours".
and people sent things, and you got the wrong thing, or didm;t get paid, or you paid and didm;t receive goods, or it took a month instead of a few days to receive payment, etc.
Let me get this right. Negative feedback is for when they took a month instead of a few days to send payment? But negative feedback is not for when they never send payment at all? Yeah that makes sense.

That, and the fact that this particular user has several successful transactions here leads me to believe strongly that there's a reason he's not here, and it was NOT to screw with the seller.
As for your last paragraph, it didn't makes sense. And I have no idea who you are talking about. I am discussing in general having negative for either side backing out of a deal once they have both agreed to a sale, not any specific transaction or person.

But let me repeat once again (and will keep repeating until you can explain how it might possibly affect you). In no way does it affect you even in the least little bit if negative is left if one side backs out of a deal. You simply choose to deal with those people anyway if you want to. But for those to whom keeping your word is important, it helps them. I can't for the world of me figure out why anybody would be so against the negative for backing out of deals unless they are one of the ones doing it, or have good friends that are. It doesn't affect you, but will help some other people. Oh, and it doesn't affect you.
 
Transaction Value

I have a serious question.

What is the general price range that in your experience buyers re neg or fail to pay?

Please don't respond that it doesn't make any difference. I am actually curious if in your experience buyers are reneging on $10. $25. $50 items or $1,000, $2,000 items.

Thanks,

Jay
 
I have found that the lower the price cue, the bigger the headache. I don't know why, but that seems to be the case.

JV

I have a serious question.

What is the general price range that in your experience buyers re neg or fail to pay?

Please don't respond that it doesn't make any difference. I am actually curious if in your experience buyers are reneging on $10. $25. $50 items or $1,000, $2,000 items.

Thanks,

Jay
 
Mexican bacote, the best cue for getting English. The harder you hit it, the more English you get out of it.... :D

j/k its a joke...

JV

I'm leaving negative Itrader for the next guy who posts "nice cue, GLWS"
I'm definitely leaving negative Itrader for the next guy who bumps his thread to tell the world that the cue is sold.
You don't even want to know what I'm going to do to the next guy that asks me questions like "whats the balance point" "how much does the weight bolt weigh" and my all time favorite "is that Mexican bacote"
 
iTrader is for completed transactions.The iTrader should be locked by the admin unless/until there is a COMPLETED transaction.What's next?Neg iTrader for someone that says,"I am interested in your cue"? And then after that,neg iTrader for someone saying,"Nice cue" ? And then are we going to leave a Neg for "GLWS" because they didn't buy our item? And then like Cuesblues stated,if someone bumps their thread to say "SOLD"? One of my personal faves,NOT! All of this is a VERY slipery slope.A very slippery slope.A very slippery slope.
Marc
 
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You guys are right, I have seen the light. Don't use I trader, just call the individual out in his own thread. Let him answer publically why he hung that person out to dry. Dedicate a thread to that person. You're right, leave I Trader out of it, lets start some individual threads. Much better. It will be easier to search out miscreants this way.

You guys are genius'... why don't I think of these things.. :)

JV
 
You guys are right, I have seen the light. Don't use I trader, just call the individual out in his own thread. Let him answer publically why he hung that person out to dry. Dedicate a thread to that person. You're right, leave I Trader out of it, lets start some individual threads. Much better. It will be easier to search out miscreants this way.

You guys are genius'... why don't I think of these things.. :)

JV


With all of the alleged habitual offenders out there, that could turn in to a dedicated sub-forum.
Also, make a spot in every 'for sale' thread to list the multiple offenders who have contacted you by username, birth name, street name, and mother's maiden name.
If more than a 3-habituals :smile: show up on the list, the seller should be entitled to limitless bumps until the item is sold.
None of these childish retaliatory moves, just stick it right up their ass.
 
I agree.. a wall of shame subcategory in W/FS.. I guarantee this happens more than you think. By the same people.. I don't know. But comparing notes about low ballers with other cue dealers, the perps are habitual.

JV

With all of the alleged habitual offenders out there, that could turn in to a dedicated sub-forum.
Also, make a spot in every 'for sale' thread to list the multiple offenders who have contacted you by username, birth name, street name, and mother's maiden name.
If more than a 3-habituals :smile: show up on the list, the seller should be entitled to limitless bumps until the item is sold.
None of these childish retaliatory moves, just stick it right up their ass.
 
There are two sets of ethics at work here. A large portion of people feel that keeping your word is important and that the commitment is formed once you say "I'll take it" or "it's yours". A large group of people don't feel that keeping your word is very important at all. Fine, everybody is entitled to their own ethics and morality.

But herein lies the problem. Right now, only one side has the information they need in order to be able to determine for themselves exactly what type of people they are dealing with. But if we have negative iTrader for backing out of deals now both sides have the information they need to determine who to deal with and how. The people for whom keeping your word is important will know who doesn't keep their word and can at their discretion either avoid doing business with them or maybe just structure deals differently with them. But it doesn't change a thing, nothing, for the people who could care less about keeping your word. If you see somebody with 10 feedbacks, only one of which is negative, and it was for backing out of a deal, then you are going to say "well in my mind that person has a perfect record" and will proceed accordingly. Everybody has what they need to use for their own best judgment.

What this comes down to is the people who feel keeping your word isn't important are just trying to force their morality and ethics onto those who feel it is important by trying to keep them from having access to that information so they can't take it into consideration. Because it won't affect them either way. They just want to make sure everybody else has to evaluate people using their ethics that they force on them.

And then the hidden agenda. Because it doesn't otherwise affect you in any way whatsoever there clearly is no reason to be against negative iTrader for backing out of deals unless you are one of the people that would back out of deals (even if you haven't done it yet). And why wouldn't you? If you do not see something as being wrong, there is no reason for you to avoid doing it. Common sense. Of course you will ending up backing out of a deal at some point if you don't see anything wrong with backing out of deals.

If you disagree then tell me how it could possibly affect you in any way other than you are just trying to force everyone else to have to go by your [lack of] ethics and because you know that you may end up backing out of deals since you don't personally have a problem with backing out of deals. I've asked a hundred times and not one of you has yet to tell me how having negative iTrader for backing out of deals with have any affect on you whatsoever unless you yourself are the type that would back out of deals.
 
There are two sets of ethics at work here. A large portion of people feel that keeping your word is important and that the commitment is formed once you say "I'll take it" or "it's yours". A large group of people don't feel that keeping your word is very important at all. Fine, everybody is entitled to their own ethics and morality.

But herein lies the problem. Right now, only one side has the information they need in order to be able to determine for themselves exactly what type of people they are dealing with. But if we have negative iTrader for backing out of deals now both sides have the information they need to determine who to deal with and how. The people for whom keeping your word is important will know who doesn't keep their word and can at their discretion either avoid doing business with them or maybe just structure deals differently with them. But it doesn't change a thing, nothing, for the people who could care less about keeping your word. If you see somebody with 10 feedbacks, only one of which is negative, and it was for backing out of a deal, then you are going to say "well in my mind that person has a perfect record" and will proceed accordingly. Everybody has what they need to use for their own best judgment.

What this comes down to is the people who feel keeping your word isn't important are just trying to force their morality and ethics onto those who feel it is important by trying to keep them from having access to that information so they can't take it into consideration. Because it won't affect them either way. They just want to make sure everybody else has to evaluate people using their ethics that they force on them.

And then the hidden agenda. Because it doesn't otherwise affect you in any way whatsoever there clearly is no reason to be against negative iTrader for backing out of deals unless you are one of the people that would back out of deals (even if you haven't done it yet). And why wouldn't you? If you do not see something as being wrong, there is no reason for you to avoid doing it. Common sense. Of course you will ending up backing out of a deal at some point if you don't see anything wrong with backing out of deals.

If you disagree then tell me how it could possibly affect you in any way other than you are just trying to force everyone else to have to go by your [lack of] ethics and because you know that you may end up backing out of deals since you don't personally have a problem with backing out of deals. I've asked a hundred times and not one of you has yet to tell me how having negative iTrader for backing out of deals with have any affect on you whatsoever unless you yourself are the type that would back out of deals.


When somebody tells me via message, thread, telephone, whatever, that they will buy the cue, without some sort payment commitment I don't take it seriously.
If the buyer is serious he will at least give you a payment date, and let you decide if you want to mark the cue sold.
It the buyer has a solid rep, contributes to the forum, I'll work with them, but when there is no credible mention of payment, I think it's a one way street or not credible, and I move on.
The beauty of sales is that you can just say yes or just say no.
Stooping to retaliation just isn't the way I do things.
In that it doesn't happen that often to me, I don't see the habitual offenders like you do, but then again when I'm in the WFS I am actively buying & selling, not lurking around trying to figure out who's doing what to who.

This is giving me nightmares.
Just last night I had a dream that a mass murderer, Charles Manson type, was sending his disciples out to buy pool cues online, and return them freight collect with out the joint protectors.
Frightening><:eek:
I couldn't get back to sleep until I looked through all my cue cases, just to make sure I knew what there, and that all of my j/p's were in tact.
 
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