Are we killing folks' stroke ???

[Jaden]

I agree and appreciate your candor and consideration of my viewpoint.

You have an interesting viewpoint. There are many who would argue the exact opposite - that BHE prevents players from learning more about the game and developing a good stroke. BHE can become a crutch, and if players don't know how to deal with shots where BHE doesn't work, they're in trouble. I teach beginners to use BHE, as it takes some of the mystery out of applying english, but I also try to help them understand that whether "parallel" or BHE is used, the cue ends up in the same place and it's really just personal preference (obviously, you prefer BHE). What that has to do with stroke or knowledge, I'm not sure.

So much of this game comes down to personal preference, from shafts, to ferrules, to weights, to wraps, to dominant eye, to stance, to ways of thinking. My personal way of thinking and shooting is totally right... FOR ME. You obviously think BHE is a great method to avoid squirt (and it is, as long as the pivot point is in a place where a bridge can be made). And that's great... FOR YOU. You keep mentioning tight pockets and how non-BHE players in your mind would have a tougher time on them. Let's debunk that right now - the top potters in the world play snooker, and very rarely do you see a snooker player using BHE.

Check out my sig - I use a Z shaft. BHE won't work for me, and I don't mind that since I've not used BHE with any of my shafts. It's nice to know about though, because there have been times when I didn't have my cues and I had to play with strange equipment. Knowing how to find the pivot point allowed me to use BHE to some degree.

BHE isn't pool's Holy Grail, it's a simple method used to take advantage of the science involved with squirt. Low squirt cues do the same thing by a different manner. Either way, you still have to line up right to see the desired contact and aim points. Either method gets you there, you can't proclaim one more accurate than another. That's in the shooter.

Personally, I think a BHE player who can't aim "parallel" probably is going to have a tougher time than a player who uses only "parallel" english. "Parallel" english works on EVERY shot, while BHE shots work only in conditions with a specific set of circumstances.

-djb <-- just my two cents - you can go back to arguing with PJ

Yes, when I refer to knowledge what I am really saying is that the people who say that BHE is crap and doesn't work and the low deflection tech is the be all end all because statements like that may prevent people from gaining the knowledge of how to use BHE and might prevent them from achieving their best game. I am NOT saying that BHE is the be all end all. It IS not, and that is why I was hesitant, atleast this time, to mention that Efren uses it and is who taught it to me (although there I go mentioning it again)LOL. I don't want to fall into the fallacy of correct by association, although I sometimes do. I only dislike people claiming the benefits of low deflection tech and bad mouthing BHE, because if you've used it, you know that it does work in many if not most situations and it can make long shots that require a lot of side spin much easier to make consistently. You're right bout snooker players possibly not using it, but they also don't usually use the amount of side spin, (if at all), that pool players use. Again, I did not mean to infer that BHE or my arguments are the only valid ones, as I know that I don't know all there is to know about billiards based games and will never try to claim that I do. I do get frustrated though when people try to bad mouth BHE, and it is probably because of the fact that I didn't believe that it could possibly work and didn't even give it a chance for a looooooong time.

One other thing, you CAN use BHE with your Z shaft. I did with someone's Z shaft earlier today. You just have to bridge at about 16-18 inches. LOL.... It's not very fun, let's put it that way.....

 

[SPINDOKTOR]

Although Efren may Use BHE I hardly think you could say this has contributed to his success...Efren is a master of the game, so ofcourse he knows about it........

break and run, of all the racks i have ever ran, not one shot did I ever use BHE....

Efren applies spin to the cue ball, his stroke is legendary, somehow saying well yeah, its BHE is BS!

BHE WILL NOT EMPOWER YOU WITH AN EFREN STROKE.. the simple act of the pivot, is more damaging than good...your moving your grip hand toward oR away from your body! so that stroke, you have worked so hard to perfect, are you really prepared to compromise it? you pivot enough and it will change your stroke, and in the end your game will suffer....

thats my reasoning, and Im prepared for war defending it...


SPINDOKTOR

Yes, when I refer to knowledge what I am really saying is that the people who say that BHE is crap and doesn't work and the low deflection tech is the be all end all because statements like that may prevent people from gaining the knowledge of how to use BHE and might prevent them from achieving their best game. I am NOT saying that BHE is the be all end all. It IS not, and that is why I was hesitant, atleast this time, to mention that Efren uses it and is who taught it to me (although there I go mentioning it again)LOL. I don't want to fall into the fallacy of correct by association, although I sometimes do. I only dislike people claiming the benefits of low deflection tech and bad mouthing BHE, because if you've used it, you know that it does work in many if not most situations and it can make long shots that require a lot of side spin much easier to make consistently. You're right bout snooker players possibly not using it, but they also don't usually use the amount of side spin, (if at all), that pool players use. Again, I did not mean to infer that BHE or my arguments are the only valid ones, as I know that I don't know all there is to know about billiards based games and will never try to claim that I do. I do get frustrated though when people try to bad mouth BHE, and it is probably because of the fact that I didn't believe that it could possibly work and didn't even give it a chance for a looooooong time.

One other thing, you CAN use BHE with your Z shaft. I did with someone's Z shaft earlier today. You just have to bridge at about 16-18 inches. LOL.... It's not very fun, let's put it that way.....

 

[Jaden]

yeah, if you pivot as u stroke...

Although Efren may Use BHE I hardly think you could say this has contributed to his success...Efren is a master of the game, so ofcourse he knows about it........

break and run, of all the racks i have ever ran, not one shot did I ever use BHE....

Efren applies spin to the cue ball, his stroke is legendary, somehow saying well yeah, its BHE is BS!

BHE WILL NOT EMPOWER YOU WITH AN EFREN STROKE.. the simple act of the pivot, is more damaging than good...your moving your grip hand toward oR away from your body! so that stroke, you have worked so hard to perfect, are you really prepared to compromise it? you pivot enough and it will change your stroke, and in the end your game will suffer....

thats my reasoning, and Im prepared for war defending it...


SPINDOKTOR

Yeah if you pivot as you stroke it will decrease ur accuracy and consistency. What you should be doing when using BHE is modify it by shifting your shoulder as you're lining up. Hell Bustamante does it before he ever gets down on the shot. You shouldstill be stroking straight through the ball, only moving your elbow as you do....sorry meant only moving ur forearm by pivoting at the elbow as u do.

 

[SPINDOKTOR]

listen, i have no problem with you, i do with BHE, some people have came to me, and I had to try to fix the result...it wasnt pretty and to them it was costly..

so if i seem like an a hole, I have a reason, i dont mean to be this way, but i take pride in my work, and when I see a student "pivot" i freak out...I just know this at some point is going to cause problems..and it useualy does...

SPINDOKTOR

Yeah if you pivot as you stroke it will decrease ur accuracy and consistency. What you should be doing when using BHE is modify it by shifting your shoulder as you're lining up. Hell Bustamante does it before he ever gets down on the shot. You shouldstill be stroking straight through the ball, only moving your elbow as you do....sorry meant only moving ur forearm by pivoting at the elbow as u do.

 

[Flex]

listen, i have no problem with you, i do with BHE, some people have came to me, and I had to try to fix the result...it wasnt pretty and to them it was costly..

so if i seem like an a hole, I have a reason, i dont mean to be this way, but i take pride in my work, and when I see a student "pivot" i freak out...I just know this at some point is going to cause problems..and it useualy does...

SPINDOKTOR

To each his own.

Larry Schwartz was the first person to show me how to use it to beat squirt. Don Feeney showed me some more.

I use both BHE and parallel english with my ultra low squirt cue.

BHE is a tool, nothing more.

Flex

 

[SPINDOKTOR]

OK, look at your avatar, now say jackie wants to use BHE, and he pivots, the grip hand toward his body,what happens to his form?

To each his own.

Larry Schwartz was the first person to show me how to use it to beat squirt. Don Feeney showed me some more.

I use both BHE and parallel english with my ultra low squirt cue.

BHE is a tool, nothing more.

Flex

 

[Flex]

OK, look at your avatar, now say jackie wants to use BHE, and he pivots, the grip hand toward his body,what happens to his form?

IMHO, the key to using BHE consistently is to pivot the cue before assuming one's stance; i.e., make the bridge, pivot the cue, and then get down on the shot. What's wrong with that? By the way, that's how I use parallel english too: see the shot while standing, make my calculations, place the cue on the parallel line, then get down on the shot.

Flex

 

[SPINDOKTOR]

look at jackie again, no matter how you stand, once you pivot your form has changed.......if you pivot before you stand, your not using bhe, your using parallel english...where your form is retained.....right?

This to me is acceptable, where you can take advantage of the principal, without a messing with your form.....

SPINDOKTOR

IMHO, the key to using BHE consistently is to pivot the cue before assuming one's stance; i.e., make the bridge, pivot the cue, and then get down on the shot. What's wrong with that? By the way, that's how I use parallel english too: see the shot while standing, make my calculations, place the cue on the parallel line, then get down on the shot.

Flex

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Flex:
I use both BHE and parallel english with my ultra low squirt cue.

With a low squirt cue you must be using some "personal" form of BHE. The pivot point will be at least 20 inches from the tip, so you can't pivot at your bridge...

pj
chgo

 

[Flex]

With a low squirt cue you must be using some "personal" form of BHE. The pivot point will be at least 20 inches from the tip, so you can't pivot at your bridge...

pj
chgo

Yes, you're right about that. I like the name you've given it; it is indeed my "personal" form of BHE. The way I use it most of the time the bridge length where the pivoting is done varies depending on the distance from the cue ball to the object ball, as well as the strength or power of the stroke. Works for me. I've tested it with many different shafts, and it works best with an ultra-low squirt cue. As with the use of parallel english, this form of BHE requires judgment calls on how to employ it, which will vary depending on the speed of the cloth and the condition of the balls. It's not mechanical, although I do have a "system" I've developed that helps me use it successfully. I don't use it all the time, but there are times or shots when it's my definite preference.

Flex

 

[Flex]

look at jackie again, no matter how you stand, once you pivot your form has changed.......if you pivot before you stand, your not using bhe, your using parallel english...where your form is retained.....right?

This to me is acceptable, where you can take advantage of the principal, without a messing with your form.....

SPINDOKTOR

Actually, form is one thing, the aiming or line of the cue stick is separate.

I could easily show you how one may pivot the cue before getting down on the shot.

In either case, using BHE or parallel, proper alignment and setup and stroke are necessary to be consistent. Nothing changes in that area.

Also, as far as one's form being "acceptable" that's an area where the "experts" will say what they will all day long, and they don't always agree, of that I'm certain.

Flex

 

[WesleyW]

Whatever that means.

Show me how this fact fits into your theory: Flexible shafts with high end mass produce more squirt than stiff shafts with low end mass.

By the way, are there any tests that support what you're asserting? I mean with results like the ones I just described, that clearly differentiate between mass and flex as the mechanism for squirt? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say no.

pj
chgo

Not exactly. I'm not questioning the tests. I'm also not questioning the results. But I'm questioning the interpretations. Let say it's true that end mass will produce lesser or more deflection. And let we also assume that flexibel shafts don't produce less or more deflection. But when we read this carefully, there is one important word in it. We are saying "end mass" and not "mass". Why is end mass more important than mass? It's because the end of the shaft is crucial when we want to know if the shaft produce more or less deflection. But when we are measuring flexibility of the shaft, we measure the whole shaft. That's exactly the problem! We want to know the flexibility of the end of the shaft, not the whole thing. A conical taper with low end mass can/will produce low deflection, because the end of the shaft is flexibel, due to a low mass.

 

[Flex]

listen, i have no problem with you, i do with BHE, some people have came to me, and I had to try to fix the result...it wasnt pretty and to them it was costly..

so if i seem like an a hole, I have a reason, i dont mean to be this way, but i take pride in my work, and when I see a student "pivot" i freak out...I just know this at some point is going to cause problems..and it useualy does...

SPINDOKTOR

It (BHE) hasn't been costly to me, it's been a money maker

Flex