Argument/Forfeit at Predator World 14.1 Championship

[Flex]

Ever met Stevie? I've been around him a lot, broke bread so to speak. First, we don't even know what happened, and now he's being hung out to dry. Come on.

Never met him.

Much of my opinion is based on this report by NY cue dude:

well, I personally spoke to both players today. I'll preface this by stating both responded well to my inquiry, as I suspect they answered as if asked by someone of authority, not a player or fan.

Bob told me, that stevie was "verbal" throughout the match. Early on, he called bob on a foul, and bob didn't question the call, although he maintains that he is almost certain that he did not. What is surprising here is that several other times in the match, at stevie's insistence, a ref came to watch specific shots to be an impartial viewer. Oddly, the 2 times stevie called foul he had NOT requested a ref. Stevie was ahead most of the match, and it was towards the end, as bob was closing the gap, the second foul was called. Apparently, bob was making a tricky shot with the bridge, when stevie said the cue came in illegal contact with a ball. Bob says that because of the first called foul, and the few times the ref had been called over, he was EXTRA AWARE of the foul potential, and swears no such foul took place. I'll get to more of bob in a moment.

Stevie on the other hand, swears he saw the foul. He went on to say that he was offended that bob didnt call it on himself, adding there was no way bob couldn't have NOT known he fouled.

I believe, strongly, that both players sincerely believe their own accountiing of the event.

Now, with that said, I don't know why stevie didnt call over the ref before this shot. Afterall, he wan't shy about doing so previously on a few prior occasions in this very match. The heat got turned up as Bon disregarded the call and began his preshot routine on the next ball. In my opinion, bob was doing the right thing. No ref, no foul. In fact, without the presence of a ref, the only person who can call a foul, is the shooter himself.

After that, there was some unfortunate name calling, and bob unscrewed.

Bob, inretrospect, really regrets doing so, and he is ashamed. He was awfully hard on himself, and was worried that his behavior would have a negative impact on the tournament. I assured him that was nonsense, but that in the future, there is never any good reason to quit something he has devoted most of his life participating and supporting.

Hope this adds new perspectives

Tv

Based on this report, as well as reading all the other posts on this thread, I came to my conclusion.

In particular, it strikes me as particularly troublesome Stevie's calling fouls and so on with no ref present, while he did call a ref over at other times. Something very unusual there. Just my opinion.

Flex

 

[Flex]

Flex, can you clarify if the above means you have been on the receiving end of Stevie's sharking, or just on the receiving end of sharking like what he's accused of? I've never even met Stevie. But I sure have been on the receiving end of it, quite a few times, actually. I know how it works, and how it can affect someone's ability to continue to play well. It is unclear from the quoted statement above if you have experience with him in particular.

If it's true that Stevie called a foul, Bob said there was none and kept shooting, then I am coming to the opinion that Bob was right. If he doesn't agree it was a foul, then play must continue. I agree wholeheartedly. Sometimes the way a foul is called seems to be intended to get the opponent really upset. This may be such a case. The last US Open 9-Ball tournament I played, my opponent took a jump shot and fouled badly (cueball clearly hit the jumpcue on the way up). But I didn't have a ref watch the shot, so I knew I had no recourse. When he didn't call a foul on himself, I looked over at my friend in the stands, we both rolled our eyes, and that was that. I knew getting into a big argument about it would be fruitless, so I didn't even start.

Still, I have been exchanging some PMs with a respected poster on this board about how even the most gracious of players can have one match that - if looked at in a vacuum - would reflect poorly on his overall level of sportsmanship. I've seen exactly the same thing happen. No names will be mentioned.

It seems these two players have exuded professionalism throughout their careers; let's give them both the benefit of the doubt and look to the late, great Jack Colavita's famous words of wisdom in a situation like this: "Whatever happened was said in the heat of battle... let's move on."

- Steve

My comments are in red.

Flex

 

[Steve Lipsky]

In particular, it strikes me as particularly troublesome Stevie's calling fouls and so on with no ref present, while he did call a ref over at other times. Something very unusual there. Just my opinion.

Flex

Flex, I always respect your opinions, but I must disagree here. You can't call a ref over on every shot. A player must "choose his ref battles", meaning, call one over on shots you anticipate are most likely to result in a foul.

There are a lot of a situations where in no way would you expect someone to foul, but he does. Again, no one from this board saw the circumstances surrounding this foul, so the fact that no ref was called implies to me Stevie was not expecting anything to even be close on this particular shot.

It's a distraction - and in my opinion, a shark - to call a ref over constantly. You should have enough respect for your opponent to not do so on the more basic shots, and it appears Stevie did have that respect. A foul may or may not have occurred which he was not expecting, and it appears the only error he committed was continuing to complain about it after it should have been obvious he was not going to win the argument.

- Steve

 

[Flex]

Flex, I always respect your opinions, but I must disagree here. You can't call a ref over on every shot. A player must "choose his ref battles", meaning, call one over on shots you anticipate are most likely to result in a foul.

There are a lot of a situations where in no way would you expect someone to foul, but he does. Again, no one from this board saw the circumstances surrounding this foul, so the fact that no ref was called implies to me Stevie was not expecting anything to even be close on this particular shot.

It's a distraction - and in my opinion, a shark - to call a ref over constantly. You should have enough respect for your opponent to not do so on the more basic shots, and it appears Stevie did. A foul may or may not have occurred which he was not expecting, and it appears the only error he committed was continuing to complain about it after it should have been obvious he was not going to win the argument.

- Steve

Thanks, Steve, I always respect your opinions, too.

I suppose part of my take on this situation comes from the time when the foul calling took place, apparently on a very important shot, that could well have determined the outcome of the match.

I've seen some incredible things happen in this regard. No names here, but two top players were in a straight pool qualifier last year, and the match was extremely tense. Lots of intentional fouls were being taken. And on one break shot, Player A calls out "safety" and shoots the ball into the pocket. Then his opponent says he didn't hear him call the safety, but 30 other people sure did. A really nasty argument broke out, and threats of physical violence were made by one, and responded to by the other. It was bad, really bad. And there was some really bad blood between both these players. Very ugly stuff.

As for calling or not calling a ref over, I agree it can be a sharking technique. And I obviously don't know what the player's intentions in the Stevie-Bob match were; that goes without saying.

I sure wish this hadn't happened at all. Unfortunately, it didn't surprise me to read about it though.

Just because we weren't there to actually witness what occurred doesn't necessarily mean we cannot have a valid opinion.

In any case, thanks, Steve, for sharing your thoughts with us.

Flex

 

[poolchic]

Any close calls should be called by the tournament director,if there is no referee present. If there is a questionable call then the call goes to the shooter. Stevie should have called the T.D. to watch those hits.

 

[firehawk062]

I usually just read- but I have to say something now. Stevie is a friend of mine and great guy. Some of the things said in here are disgusting. It has already been said that everyone should just move on since we can never really know exactly what happened. Oh, and Flexie boy, if you ever get lucky enough to actually sit down and have a conversation with Stevie, you will be eating your words. When you talk to him, it doesn't matter who you are, there is something about him-- you know you have his full attention. A lot of people in his position aren't as receptive to the fans, or "average joes", like he is. You should cut him some slack-- unless , of course, you yourself are perfect and have never had a disagreement while playing a match. Also, since you have admitted to not knowing him then what gives you the right to say something foul like Stevie got where he is by being shady? You're just wrong.

 

[jimmy-leggs]

I usually just read- but I have to say something now. Stevie is a friend of mine and great guy. Some of the things said in here are disgusting. It has already been said that everyone should just move on since we can never really know exactly what happened. Oh, and Flexie boy, if you ever get lucky enough to actually sit down and have a conversation with Stevie, you will be eating your words. When you talk to him, it doesn't matter who you are, there is something about him-- you know you have his full attention. A lot of people in his position aren't as receptive to the fans, or "average joes", like he is. You should cut him some slack-- unless , of course, you yourself are perfect and have never had a disagreement while playing a match. Also, since you have admitted to not knowing him then what gives you the right to say something foul like Stevie got where he is by being shady? You're just wrong.

Amen!!!

 

[Flex]

I usually just read- but I have to say something now. Stevie is a friend of mine and great guy. Some of the things said in here are disgusting. It has already been said that everyone should just move on since we can never really know exactly what happened. Oh, and Flexie boy, if you ever get lucky enough to actually sit down and have a conversation with Stevie, you will be eating your words. When you talk to him, it doesn't matter who you are, there is something about him-- you know you have his full attention. A lot of people in his position aren't as receptive to the fans, or "average joes", like he is. You should cut him some slack-- unless , of course, you yourself are perfect and have never had a disagreement while playing a match. Also, since you have admitted to not knowing him then what gives you the right to say something foul like Stevie got where he is by being shady? You're just wrong.

Perhaps I should have just bitten my tongue earlier. It's unfortunate that apparently Stevie couldn't let that foul he called just go when Bob didn't agree to it. After all, from all accounts, there was no ref present to witness the shot. Apparently, he continued to insist on the foul, when I suppose he knows he shouldn't have. Perhaps he forgot the rule; that's always possible.

As for him supposedly being "shady," I don't think I used that word to describe him, as I don't think he is. That, however, does not mean he won't engage in sharking techniques from time to time, as many people do, sometimes innocently, many times not so blamelessly. If someone sharks intentionally only once in a year, for example, but the consequences of the shark attack are that he wins a key game which turns around a match and lets him make it to the finals and glory and, let's say, a $25,000 prize, does the fact the person did it only once make it alright? Not in my book!

As for me ever getting "lucky enough to actually sit down and have a conversation" with him, I'm not so sure I'd relish doing that. As for being receptive to the fans, I hope not only he but everyone would be so kind.

Actually, I am cutting him a lot of slack; if I had been there and it had been worse than has been reported, which I honestly hope is not the case, my comments might be even more direct, although whether or not I'd express them in any way is uncertain.


Peace,

Flex

 

[SUPERSTAR]

To give the benefit of the doubt, which is totally not in my nature.

In the days headline, it mentioned that it was Stevie's FIRST 14.1 event. I would assume that it means that it's his first MAJOR 14.1 event.

SOOO.....

There IS the slightest possibility that he might not actually know the correct rules in regards to a professional 14.1 tournament regarding fouls and refs and what have you.

I know i probably don't, and that's why i sit at players meetings and listen and ask questions so i DO know.

If he didn't know, then one might assume that he thought it COULD be an issue after the fact with no ref present to call the foul.

Although once it was made clear to him that regardless, the call went to the shooter, it should have been over with.

That is where the mistake/problem lies. In the insistence of a foul after the fact.
Rules are rules, and they are there for a reason.

To go back to one of my favorite examples of how rules can't be changed. (i use this one all the time)
At the SUPERBILLIARDSEXPO a few years back, i witnessed the greatest scumbag move of all time.
Marty "Trenton Marty" Ciccia was playing someone in the 9ball bar table event when there was a possible close call/foul on a particular shot that his opponent was going to shoot, should he try to pocket the ball instead of playing the safe.

So Marty said that if he was gonna try and shoot it, he would go get the ref, to which the other guy said that it wasn't necessary and that he wasn't going to shoot it that way.

The guy then proceeded to rifle the ball in the hole, foul and all, and when Marty said that it was a foul, the other guy said it wasn't, and that if Marty wanted to have a foul called, he should have gotten the ref cause the call goes to the shooter.

Marty lost the match as a result.

But it is a prime example of how rules should be interpreted.
LITERALLY.
If the rule was there regarding the calling of fouls in the 14.1, then that rule should have been respected.
Simple as that.

If anything was said about a possible foul, regardless, it should have been dropped. If it wasn't, then the complaint Bob has is a valid one.

 

[NYC cue dude]

as I stated earlier, I believe both players were convinced they were right regarding the foul AND what the outce should have been. Bob obviously felt he didnt foul, and with no ref present, no foul could be called. Steve insists there was a foul and because he called an unsupervised foul earlier, felt this one should stick too. Clearly I disagree with that.

But the real problem is how BOTH players handled themselves in a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP event. One player reduced himself to childish and profane name calling. The other quit.

So no matter how right each player may have been ULTIMATELY BOTH PLAYERS WERE WRONG!

Rg

Edit; woth that said, and no further resolution forthcoming, it's time to let this thread die and turn our free time to following the non coverage of "my" event.

 

[Snap9]

Biased reporting

Now when you have more than one witness to this situation I will consider your reporting legitimate. Otherwise, I consider it slander.



I personally have played Stevie Moore multiple times in tournaments in my area. I have nothing but the highest level of respect for his professionalism on and off the table. Point in reference: I had a tough shot that I was about to shoot( close range--jacked up--very potential double hit) and I asked him to find the tournament director to call the potential foul that was about to occur. He stated "that he would watch the hit" which I had no problem with him making the call. So I preceded to make the hit. He called it clean/ no-foul. I proclaimed to him that I believed I fouled. He than said no you hit it perfect with no foul so I continued on with the rack. In the end he beat me that set, but I did put up a good fight.

This continuing saga is rediculous.

 

[fish on]

No harm no foul! Shoot pool when foul was denied by Bob it should have been let go ! You sharked him by continuing on .
why did'nt you ask for tounament director ruling, instead of calling Bob names. I know Bob if he thought he fouled he would have agreed with you! What makes you the judge?
If you need money that bad get a job!

 

[JackUGA]

No harm no foul! Shoot pool when foul was denied by Bob it should have been let go ! You sharked him by continuing on .
why did'nt you ask for tounament director ruling, instead of calling Bob names. I know Bob if he thought he fouled he would have agreed with you! What makes you the judge?
If you need money that bad get a job!

Were you there, did you actually see all of this, if not shut up. Who the hell are you to sit there and judge Stevie. If you have a problem with him then contact him and settle it. Dont sit on the internet behind a computer and a false name and drag someones name through the mud. By the way I your post seem to me that you actually are talking to Stevie, but for your info he does not post on here. you can talk him at stevie-moore.com

Jackson

 

[NYC cue dude]

slander? Are u serious? Stevie will be the first to admit that me used profanity and called bob a cheater. The only thing here in dispute was if the foul was committed. Many people were witness to the quite loud aftermath. In fact, I believe (and will confirm tommorow) that the toirnamnet director john leyman witnessed it.

Get a grip dude.

Randy Goldwater

 

[SUPERSTAR]

So did Mr. Leyman get an ear full of it as well?

There should be measures to stop stuff like this at a major event.

There should be a ZERO TOLERANCE rule with refs to enforce it, so that the instant someone gets out of line and decides to degrade the game and bring it down to scumbag level by opening their mouth, they are immediately ejected from the tournament on the spot, NO QUESTIONS ASKED.

Here is your tournament reward for making an ass out of yourself.
LEAVE!

Bye bye entry fee.
Bye bye hotel fee's.
Bye bye Air fare/tolls and gas.

You watch how people who would otherwise open their mouths to let the diarrhea fly, shut their pie hole and don't say a word.

 

[RunoutalloverU]

Without a ref, the rule makes no sense. I consider myself a very gracious player, and there is no way in hell I am going to give up the table if I don't know I've fouled, without a ref.

That's terrible that Bob gave up like that, because with a win over Ralf already under his belt, this would be a nice second victory. Still, we've all been in situations where guys have put us on tilt, and the things we do in response are sometimes not the best course of action.

"All-ball fouls" is a nice theory, but in practice it's very messy. A guy's turn at the table should not end because a button on his shirt barely brushes a ball. All that does is penalize people for their physical qualities (a lanky, tall person has a huge edge over a short, stocky person), and it leads to ill feelings for being called on a foul you are not even aware of. I really think it's a terrible practice, one whose time should come to a merciful end.

- Steve

Well said couldnt agree more

 

[SUPERSTAR]

All you Stevie supporters

I was talking with my own source who was sitting right there at the tournament, and he verified that Stevie did indeed curse Bob out, and was not only an A-hole, but completely out of line.

So all you people that are claiming disgust cause you think Stevie has a halo and wings, you all need to abandon that blind allegiance, cause you are dead wrong.

Stevie reduced himself to someone who has absolutely no class.

The guy should be ashamed of himself.

But in the pool world i know, people won't persecute him, they will most likely be giving him high fives and buying him beers and telling him "good job" for "cursing out that guy"

That's why pro pool will never hit the big time, and will always be in the crapper.
Cause of guys like this.

 

[Ktown D]

I have known Steve for many years and I have witnessed him lose his cool a couple of times but who hasn't. I know I have said things that I regretted at a later date. If Stevie felt like he was being taken advantage of or cheated it is his right to voice his displeasure. If he witnessed the other man foul and in turn the other player states that he did not then Stevie probably felt he was getting played for a chump or maybe getting homered. This is definitely not a great situation but saying that Stevie Moore is what is bad for pool is ignorant. He is always pleasurable to talk to and makes time to interact with fans at the events that he plays. He is very polite, very prompt and doesn't show up in 2 day old clothes and a ballcap. This little incident aside, Stevie Moore could be one of the poster boys for what is right with pool.

I spoke to Steve about this incident Saturday and I heard his version and I believe him to be telling the truth. Many may not agree with me and that is their right. The first thing I asked myself was would Steve have gotten so irate if the man had truly not fouled and tried to get away with it?

JMO

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Anyone who acts that way in a professional event is disgracing the sport. PERIOD.
There are no excuses.

This isn't some poolroom argument, this is a World Championship, and he acted like an ass.

Do you really think any potential sponsors are ever gonna pony up any type of money were they to witness behavior like this?

It's just BAD for pool. Simple as that. If he felt like he was getting Homered or not is besides the point. There is a way to act professionally, and then there is a way to act UN professionally.

He chose the latter, and therefore he should be held accountable as should everyone who decides to act like an ass.

If that is how he chose to act, then he is BAD for pool. Just like everyone else who acts like an ass is BAD for pool.

It has nothing to do if he was right or wrong about the foul. It is his ACTIONS that are in question now.

It's plain as day.
He acted unprofessionally, and anyone who would ever feel the need to criticize his actions is fully justified in doing so.

 

[BVal]

This isn't some poolroom argument, this is a World Championship, and he acted like an ass.

Do you really think any potential sponsors are ever gonna pony up any type of money were they to witness behavior like this?

Look at all the MAJOR corporate sponsors who are involved in baseball and basketball. Those two sports alone have more crybabies, fights between each other/fans and out of control arguements with the refs/umps and corporate america has no problem shelling out cash for them.
I am not talking about these two players and this incedent - I am just talking about this comment. If no sponsors are willing to pony up money for witnessing that kind of behavior then why do these sports have no problem with money? JMHO - not trying to argue with you. Just a different perspective.
Personally - I think the reason is something else - I am just not sure exactly what it is.

BVal