Arizona Ratings System

ratings system in relation to leagues...

I have been reading all the posts here regarding the AZ ratings system and I have a comment that I didn't see anyone else make, in regards to leagues that is. I am a lady shooter, I play in a ladies 8ball league and 2 open 8ball & 9ball leagues here in AZ. The sad thing is that the ladies 8ball league has a Team Rating Cap much lower than the open 8ball & 9ball caps, leading me to believe that the league operator believes that all ladies are rated as low players, and should not try to make them selves any better. This thought has been reinforced by a team of ladies, who obviously don't want to get better because they complained against my team, simply because we beat them. I firmly believe that as a lady I should be able to shoot against anyone and give them a good game, if I get beat, so be it, at least I learned something from the game, I would hope. By keeping the rating cap for the ladies league much lower than any of the other leagues I believe that he's sending a message to ladies that we can't or shouldn't play as well as men do. I play in a ladies league because I enjoy shooting with my team and playing against just other ladies. I play in the open leagues because I like the diversity of shooting against men. I'm starting to see that in order to keep improving I'm going to have to drop the ladies league all together and keep playing with you guys, where at least I'll get the respect my game deserves. Thanks!
 
Re: ratings system in relation to leagues...

8BALLQT247 said:
I have been reading all the posts here regarding the AZ ratings system and I have a comment that I didn't see anyone else make, in regards to leagues that is. I am a lady shooter, I play in a ladies 8ball league and 2 open 8ball & 9ball leagues here in AZ. The sad thing is that the ladies 8ball league has a Team Rating Cap much lower than the open 8ball & 9ball caps, leading me to believe that the league operator believes that all ladies are rated as low players, and should not try to make them selves any better. This thought has been reinforced by a team of ladies, who obviously don't want to get better because they complained against my team, simply because we beat them. I firmly believe that as a lady I should be able to shoot against anyone and give them a good game, if I get beat, so be it, at least I learned something from the game, I would hope. By keeping the rating cap for the ladies league much lower than any of the other leagues I believe that he's sending a message to ladies that we can't or shouldn't play as well as men do. I play in a ladies league because I enjoy shooting with my team and playing against just other ladies. I play in the open leagues because I like the diversity of shooting against men. I'm starting to see that in order to keep improving I'm going to have to drop the ladies league all together and keep playing with you guys, where at least I'll get the respect my game deserves. Thanks!
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This is unfortunate...there should not be a lower cap on the ladies league because we happen to have quite a few ladies that shoot very well in Arizona. Maybe the league just doesnt want those ladies making a team and running away with it all the trophies.

Good Luck to you in your pool...I dont think you should let anyone hold you back if you have the desire to play well.

Chucklez65
 
Ratings

The limited amount experience I have had with tournaments is that the TD should either know or be able to rate a players speed. At Hard Times people who go know that the competition is going to be strong but they are interested in competing and know that only their strongest day will get them to the money. I have a friend that has been going for 3yrs and he hasn't cashed out yet ( close but no dinero) but his game has sure improved! At a small local tournament, mostly B's & C's, we periodically have people of note stop by. One day a guy came in and told the TD that he was a "roadie" but would like to play, Jack, the TD checked with a few of us and told him "no problem" He of course won the tournament but we all enjoyed the day . His name was Troy Frank. At that tournament it is short races to 4 and 3 on the losers. When too many A's continue to show up he limits them to only the 1st Saturday of the month. Before he started doing that there was a time when Marcus Chamat snuck in and went 2 and out, short races, strange happenings. On the way out the TD told him he couldn't come back. Two and out and banned! Jimmy, how was the tournament at Hard Times for you? A friend told me that Parica was there last Sunday.
 
Why complain about tournaments and keep playinging in them. I live in AZ and I quit playing tournaments about 4 years ago. I bounce from pool hall and bar and play people. I don't get rich but my game has improved. I don't play like Jimmy but I hold my own. I could take advantage of the rating system but I choose not to. Jimmy AZ sucks for the better players you have known that for years. I have played against you years ago at Casino billiards in the winner take all tournament. I would play in tournaments that were run differently but I don't think many other people would so there is no money for the owner of the bar.

Jimmy I am Steve Rodgers son Dave. Take it easy
 
Toad13 said:
Why complain about tournaments and keep playinging in them.
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Hey Dave. I saw your dad a couple weeks ago, I think at Pappy's. I'm not complaining about the tournaments I play in, although I did mention the one at Pappy's as an example of what they have to do if they want to draw players to an open tournament (make the entry fee $5). If they were to have made it a $50 entry fee, they would have been lucky to get 25 players.

Maybe I'll see you around some time if you come over to the East side!

Jimmy
 
I've been thinking about playing in a tournament but I have to get rated again. I'll make it out to the east side soon. Later Dave
 
I know this is kinda off subject, but I will be in Phoenix for the first time this summer. I was wondering which pool halls can I go to to play in tournaments? Which ones are good for action? And which ones are nice??? I only like to play on 9' tables. The tourney can be either 8 or 9 ball.
 
Ratings System

This pool hall that I go to have a B tournament on Monday nights and an A tournament on Tuesday nights. Both tournaments are a race to four. The difference is A players can't play in the B tournament and there is a flat rate for the entry. In the A tournament, a player pays from $5 - B player rate, on up to $15 or $20 depending on how good they play. When a B player starts winning the B tournament on a regular basis, they are bounced out. Of course there are some so-called B players that never seem to win the tournament but always get in the money.

One way to build up the number of players for a tournament is to have a go-off bucket. Have a lottery, $1 a ticket to see who can make the 9 ball on the break. That bucket really can get big. The bigger it gets, the more players you'll have. I've heard of go-off buckets getting as big as $10,000.
 
Chucklez65 said:
The solution would be to (ideally) open ALL tournaments to ALL ratings. Abolish the #-under tourneys. Unfortunately, in my pessimistic opinion, the bar owners think that they would lose too much money if the tourneys were opened up. I wish we could get a significant number to commit to trying their tourneys as open to all ratings for a year or more just to see what would happen.
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Perhaps the reason lower rated players don't want to play against the higher rated is because the system
1) can initially assign player ratings incorrectly and does not have a valid method of rating adjustment, and/or
2) has race length schedules that do not accurately reflect true skill differences.

Have you heard of Bob Jewett's handicap system? It's the fairest one in the land.
 
Mike,
I hold the title for the best 7. Heck, when I was there and ranked a 7, I couldn't get the last two from ANYONE!:D :D :D
 
Have you heard of Bob Jewett's handicap system? It's the fairest one in the land. [/B][/QUOTE]

The National Pool League (NPL) right? I've played in it. As a matter of fact, Bob handicapped me. My take on it is, a player can still sandbag the initial rating, but over time, your rating should better reflect your actual ability. It works something like this:

Win a tournament, your rating goes up two points.
Lose your first match and your rating goes down a point or two.

I also think that there should be more involvment by the tournament director, and the director should have the ability to adjust the handicap during the tournament if necessary. I was playing a handicap tournament a while back and the director asked me to handicap a new player. This player made 90 degree cuts, executed excellent safeties and demonstrated a better-than-average ability to kick the ob. I recommended a rating commensurate with what I observed. The director completely discounted my recommendation because he was afraid this player wouldn't want to play with that high of a rating even though several other players agreed with my recommendation. It's my opinion that this is one of the big problems with handicap tournaments. Nothing makes players more disgusted than playing someone whose rating is completely out of whack, especially if it's way too low!

As far as the open tournaments go, I can't understand why a $20 doublie elimination tournament wouldn't work out. Like Jimmy said, most people will spend as much or more in table time for practice. I used to play in one in LA. In addition to the $20 entry, the loser paid for the table time. This gave the room an incentive for having the tournament. Every time I played in it, they had close to the maximum number of players. Some of the best players in Southern Ca used to play in it. Heck, it was worth the $20 just to be able to play some of those gifted players! Most of them wouldn't play you for just $20 outside of the tournament.
 
Ted Harris said:
Mike,
I hold the title for the best 7. Heck, when I was there and ranked a 7, I couldn't get the last two from ANYONE!:D :D :D
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You were definitely the best 7 in the valley ;)
 
I must be in Heaven....

There is a tournament every nite of the week here in Cincinnati.

Most of them are on 8 footers. Most of them are $10 with green fees included. Most of them are OPEN.

Sunday tournaments are $15 and played on 9 footers.

One pool hall has 3 tournaments a week.
Most of the others are twice a week.

Formats are DE and its mostly 9 ball TE rules.

Race to 3 or 4 in the weekly tournaments.. and Sundays it s a race to 5.

I must be in Heaven..
 
Rickw
The National Pool League (NPL) right? I've played in it. As a matter of fact, Bob handicapped me. My take on it is, a player can still sandbag the initial rating, but over time, your rating should better reflect your actual ability.
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Of course any system can be sandbagged initially. All leagues rate the same ways to start- who knows this guy, who does he beat, who beats him, how does he shoot, phone calls, skills tests, conversion from other rating systems, etc. But my point was that a fair and effective rating adjustment method is necessary.

Rickw
It works something like this:
Win a tournament, your rating goes up two points.
Lose your first match and your rating goes down a point or two.
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The adjustment must also be timely. Many players won't want to stick around if it takes forever for everyone to rise and fall to his proper level. I like to adjust after every set.

I don't know where on the net to point you to this file so I'll copy it here. It has been posted on the net as is for years.

*******************************

The NPL Handicapped Nine Ball System

This system was developed by Bob Jewett and is widely used in the San Fransisco Bay area. Gene Miller is the NPL league operator.

Each player has a rating; better players have higher ratings. Beginners will have ratings around 20, while professional players will have ratings around 100 or higher. Matches are handicapped by requiring the better player to win more games to win the match. The size of the handicap is determined by the difference between the ratings of the players according to the tables below. For example, if a player rated at 55 played someone rated at 25, the difference would be 30 rating points and the regular match length would be six games to three.

The ratings are adjusted after each tournament. For each match a player wins or loses, his rating goes up or down one point. New players are adjusted faster than that, moving three rating points per match for their first ten matches and then two for twenty matches.

Short Match
..(Chart-8)
Rating....Match
..Diff......Games
..0-6........4-4
..7-18......4-3
19-29......5-3
30-39......4-2
40-48......5-2
49-UP......6-2

Regular Match
..(Chart-10)
Rating....Match
..Diff......Games
..0-5........5-5
..6-14......5-4
15-21......6-4
22-28......5-3
29-36......6-3
37-46......7-3
47-56......6-2
57-UP......7-2

Long Match
(Chart-12)
Rating....Match
..Diff......Games
..0-4........6-6
..5-11......6-5
12-17......7-5
18-22......6-4
23-28......7-4
29-35......8-4
36-42......7-3
43-48......8-3
49-58......9-3
59-68......8-2
69-UP......9-2

If the better player is giving up half or more of the match, he has choice on the first break, otherwise lag for first break.

Tables for other length matches are available and may be used.

Optional rules to reduce delay from slow players:

Speedup Rule 1: If both players have ratings under 45, use Chart-8, otherwise use Chart-10.

Speedup Rule 2: If the whole tournament is waiting on one match that hasn't started yet, that match will use Chart-8 instead of Chart-10. Use of this rule is at the tournament director's discretion.

*****************************
 
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