Ask me too
- Thread starter FranCrimi
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I don't have my little red book by Mosconi with me. I cannot remember if he covers this too I am sure someone has access to this resource. If so let us know.
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I think Rick's question is a good one. There is nothing wrong in questioning the logic of looking at the ob last. I actually agree with him in that I have yet to see an absolute reason for it. I think my reasoning of helping me feel the speed of the shot is a decent one, but there may be even better ones out there.
Sorry guys, but I see his posts differently than you. I am not offended when he challenges instructors. It just makes me feel like I need to continue to do research and homework and seek out better answers.
Sorry guys, but I see his posts differently than you. I am not offended when he challenges instructors. It just makes me feel like I need to continue to do research and homework and seek out better answers.
I HAVE LOOKED AT THE OBJECT BALL DURING THE STROKE FOR 46 YEARS.
Just recently, since going to TOI, have I gravitated to looking at the cue ball during the stroke.
I don't particularly like it.
With all due respect to Mr. Martin, I do not think he is the scientific experts to which Neil was referring to which instructors base there suggestions.
Or... was that an unitentional mis-statement on Neil's part.
And, I wonder if Mr. Wilson can tell me when a certain individual received his medical degree & can make a diagnosis over the internet?
AGAIN & AGAIN & AGAIN.
It would seem like someone is vindictively calling the OCD kettle black.
Also, can someone tell me how many years was it taught that the world was flat before it was discovered to be a false teaching?
Seems like someone needs lessons in logical 'argument' or considers the general AZB readership to be ignorant & gullible.
Best Wishes to All,
Rick
PS Sorry for the CAPS & derailment that someone has directed at me. Isn't there a 'T' word for that kind of activity?
Just recently, since going to TOI, have I gravitated to looking at the cue ball during the stroke.
I don't particularly like it.
With all due respect to Mr. Martin, I do not think he is the scientific experts to which Neil was referring to which instructors base there suggestions.
Or... was that an unitentional mis-statement on Neil's part.
And, I wonder if Mr. Wilson can tell me when a certain individual received his medical degree & can make a diagnosis over the internet?
AGAIN & AGAIN & AGAIN.
It would seem like someone is vindictively calling the OCD kettle black.
Also, can someone tell me how many years was it taught that the world was flat before it was discovered to be a false teaching?
Seems like someone needs lessons in logical 'argument' or considers the general AZB readership to be ignorant & gullible.
Best Wishes to All,
Rick
PS Sorry for the CAPS & derailment that someone has directed at me. Isn't there a 'T' word for that kind of activity?
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Thank You Fran,
It is not that I am questioning instructors. I just have questions as to some of what is taught & why it is taught.
Your attitude is a good one in the one should be able to explain why one teaches what they teach or perhaps they should not be teaching it. Or at least teach it with an honest representation that they don't know why & that there is no proof that it is definitive to be 'correct' or the best, but until something else comes along it seems to be the best for now.
It is often said that students should have an open mind but yet some instructors & other individuals display the opposite. Perhaps it is a bit of do what I say & not what I do.
Some just like being in command of others.
Looks like someone got what they wanted. I must be a weak individual.
Thanks Again Fran & as Always Best Wishes in Everything,
Rick
PS Your good attitude, behavior, kindness in most instances (you are Italian & can get fiery, there's nothing wrong with that when appropriate) & your professionalism that you display here along with your knowledge, insight, & a players perspective is why I recommend you over every other instructor here whenever the opportunity arises that is appropriate. In fact, if I were to ever search out for a lesson from any instructor for what ever reason it would be with you, Fran Crimi. ( Well... perhaps CJ for TOI specifics)
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The hand follows the eye. It seems to me the answer is that simple.
Point at a spot on the wall with your index finger. Did you look at the spot as you raised your hand or did you look at your finger? While I can look at my finger as I point at the spot, it is more comfortable (natural) to look at the spot.
I think that if you are looking at the OB last the body /mind makes any necessary adjustments as needed.
For me, a definitive answer would be straight forward. Set up a series of shots that require you to vary the use of your ability, some close shots, some distant, straight in, 30 degree cuts, thin cuts, etc.
First use one procedure then the other. The results will tell me what is best for me.
Another way would be to play the Ghost one way, then the other.
I have done both of these and for me, looking at the OB last is "best" for my way of playing.
I can and do look at the cue ball last for the break and for jacked up shots. I also have less control of my accuracy at these times. So I am not adamant in my opinion, I base my stroke on what works for me.
Point at a spot on the wall with your index finger. Did you look at the spot as you raised your hand or did you look at your finger? While I can look at my finger as I point at the spot, it is more comfortable (natural) to look at the spot.
I think that if you are looking at the OB last the body /mind makes any necessary adjustments as needed.
For me, a definitive answer would be straight forward. Set up a series of shots that require you to vary the use of your ability, some close shots, some distant, straight in, 30 degree cuts, thin cuts, etc.
First use one procedure then the other. The results will tell me what is best for me.
Another way would be to play the Ghost one way, then the other.
I have done both of these and for me, looking at the OB last is "best" for my way of playing.
I can and do look at the cue ball last for the break and for jacked up shots. I also have less control of my accuracy at these times. So I am not adamant in my opinion, I base my stroke on what works for me.
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Fran:
The problem is not questioning the logic of looking at the OB last, nor of questioning legacy knowledge or knowledge of instructors.
Actually, it's related to the last piece you wrote (bolded above). We all are responsible for keeping our knowledge up to snuff by doing our research and homework (this doesn't even need to be said -- it's common knowledge for those of us in the "knowledge transfer" business).
No, the issue is when some knowledge is shared -- on a forum, in reply to someone's question or what-not -- it's not just questioning the knowledge, but the continued spiraling down rabbit holes, putting the onus upon the person who originally shared the knowledge to spend considerable effort explaining minutiae in detail, and going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth (ad nauseum) with this person. I mean, look at all the threads and hoopla surrounding the topic of "pendulum stroke." Instead of either "just getting it" as to why it's taught, or just agreeing to disagree, it's like he has to CONVINCE you why he's right. Most level-headed people will just write off a staunch disagreement as an impasse, wipe their hands, and be done with it. Not this guy! He *HAS* to convince you. Look at the continued mention of the "46/47 years" thing. He'd cooled his heels on that for a while, but now is back in full swing mentioning it in just about every post he makes. "But I have to tell you... but I have to tell you..." Why?!?
Fran, in I.T. we have a term we use for a hacker technique for bringing down a website, server, or other information-serving resource. You may have heard the term, "Denial of Service" (or "DoS" for short). This is when you overwhelm a server with requests for information -- not paying attention to / discarding the answers in the process -- and keep blasting the server with continued requests for info, overflowing the services running on that server until it can't take anymore, and abends (crashes).
This is what happened to many of us when Rick made his presence known in this and other forums. He, in essence, "DoS'ed" the forums. We don't "crash," per se, but many of us had to resort to putting him on Ignore -- a veritable "firewall" that had to be installed to shield us from being dragged down rabbit holes and otherwise have our entire days be spent responding to the onslaught of "requests" and "questions" and "counterpoints" and "can you explain..." and "why is it that..." and "so-and-so says..." and "my 46/47 years of experience says..." etc. You get the picture.
Honestly, I've never seen anything like it. But then again, that's the beauty of forums -- you meet folks from all walks of life, and chalk it up to experience.
I know I'm pointed in my replies when I see something quoted by him. I mean no malice towards the guy, but jeez-Christmas, for someone who thinks he considers himself a somewhat "aware" analytical individual, wouldn't you think he'd be aware that how he presents himself on the forums is -- at the very least (putting it kindly) -- quite anomalous?
-Sean
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Joe,
Thanks for the input & I certainly tend to agree. My involuntary change has me a bit concerned & just wondering why it seems to have occurred.
When throwing a football to one running a long fly or post pattern my last look is into the sky on the angle that I need for my arm strength to get the ball there. i do not look at the the receiver when I am actually throwing the ball. That said, on shorter passes one, I, do look at the receiver or the spot to which he may be running. Just some different thought even though for a different fora different purpose.
The Eyes & their connection to the mind... & body are amazing.
Do you have any ideas as to why I have subconsciously made the change with the other changes like TOI, firmer & more full 'grip', & more compact & quicker stroke?
Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
PS I just failed...again to follow your advice about taking time before responding. Right now I'm about 40 to 50 percent successful at executing that axiom.
Why don't you talk about me like I am not even here instead of sending Fran a PM.
Who do you think you're kidding. You must REALLY think the general readership IS ignorant.
Sorry, that's all the food you're going to get from me today 'Doctor' 'T'.
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Willie Mosconie quote
The link is to a pdf file that is the book.
Taken from Winning. Pockei' Billiards by. Willie Mosconi
The link is to a pdf file that is the book.
Taken from Winning. Pockei' Billiards by. Willie Mosconi
Willie Mosconi said:
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The football pass is shooting at a moving target. I think that is substantially different than shooting at a static target.
As to why CB last works for you I can hazard a guess. In golf they often use an intermediate target. For me it is about 10 - 20 feet in front of the golf ball. I pick this spot which is easy to see and in line with the target. My swing is coordinated to drive the ball over the spot in front of me. Once I have established the intermediate target it is "easier" for me to swing the golf club without looking up.
I also use an intermediate target as a guide for some long shots when playing pool. The intermediate target is nothing more than a sign that I use to determine if I have a straight line from the back hand to the contact point (allowing for English etc.). When playing pool I don't really use the intermediate target as a "target." It merely is used to determine if I need to stand up and start over because the line is not "straight."
I suspect that you may be doing something similar. Once you have a line in front of the CB, makes no difference how long or short the line, this is your reference point for the back hand. Perhaps you find it easier to control the back hand when you use an intermediate target as the CB. I can see how this would work for some people as the line of travel is truncated and there is less need to look over "longer" distances.
I suppose that so long as one can rely on the intermediate target for accuracy there is no requirement to look over the longer distance and more time can be spent on where the CB is struck.
I also suspect that CB last may be useful for people who have a tendency to look up before they make contact with the CB. That is, CB last helps one to "stay down" on a shot.
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Joe:
Nice post! The hand follows the eye -- I like that, and I agree. I think the issue with folks that seem to get better results with looking at the CB last vs the OB last, is/are fundamentals. We're all taught that fundamentals should be committed to the subconscious to the point where we don't have to "look" at any aspect of our stroke, and be confident that we hit the cue ball where we intend. However, if some aspect of our fundamentals are loosey-goosey, we need to look at the CB last to be sure we're hitting it where we think.
Obviously, on such very specific point-purpose shots as masse and jacked-up shots, we may have to look at the CB last because we're no longer cueing parallel to the table surface, but instead are angled down, and contact accuracy here is paramount to prevent a miscue, etc.
When trap or skeet shooting, one brings the shotgun up to his/her line of sight while the eye follows the target (OB). One doesn't "look at the sights" last, but keeps his/her focus on the clay pigeon, and relies upon subconscious/rote to align the sights to that target picture. Since pool "sighting" involves looking slightly "over" the cue (and not truly "eye viewing down the barrel" as is the case with skeet/trap shooting), a little bit of eye pattern is needed, back and forth from the cue ball to the object ball, to line things up. But the delivery is all "hit that clay pigeon" -- looking at it last.
It's not to say one can't get accustomed to CB last (and be a great player to boot), but it helps ingrain what comes naturally in other sports. There's a reason why we do things the way we do in those other "target / line-of-sight"-oriented sports. It's leveraging our natural subconscious abilities -- not trying to "bubble up" minutiae into the conscious mind.
-Sean
In general I agree with Sean. CB last is one way of addressing flaws in one's fundamentals. I suspect that for some people, who have used it extensively, it becomes their primary way of shooting. My recommendation to Rick would be to try to determine why CB last is helping his game.
Rick what else are you doing differently now that you use CB last?
Rick what else are you doing differently now that you use CB last?
This is true for me!
That is where it is just different strokes for different folks.
I learned to "stay down" by making myself learn to see the CB strike the OB. I reasoned that if I did not see the actual impact I could not "know" what I did wrong. Later I learned to "replay" the shot in my head. Like rewinding a video tape. While that works for me, because I use visualization for many things, it doesn't necessarily work for everyone.
Joe,
Thanks,
Just a couple of points. Even if one was throwing a football to a stationary target far away or a baseball to home plate from the outfield, I, & I would think many many others would still look up at the launch angle target & not the final destination target. We don't look at the pocket we look at what angle we have to 'create' at the OB to get it to go to the final destination target, the pocket.
We are creating the arc per power vs gravity to get the ball to the final target & we are creating an angle due to collision parameters to get the OB to go to the pocket.
There seems to be some misunderstanding, even though I have stated it several times. I have looked at the OB during the stroke for over 4 & 1/2 decades (since Sean does not like 46 or 47 years) & have just recently noticed that I have gravitated to looking at the CB during the stroke since going to TOI. There have been other unintentional changes too, such as a firmer & more full grip & a more compact & quicker stroke.
For me & my 4.5 decades of using english I have never looked at the CB during the stroke except for those very different type shots when doing so is conducive to greater success. That was because I was almost always hitting off center by approximately 2 tips or more. The focus was on the distance & the spin to speed aspect for the swerve.
Now that I am hitting much closer to center & any small variation could over squirt the ball it seems that my focus has unintentionally shifted to the CB during the stroke.
So besides the concern for myself for certain reasons that are not germane to this topic, I am wondering if it would not perhaps be better if one looked at the cue ball when trying to hit the exact center vertical line. Have I actually been a case study & is there any conclusive correlation.
I know, I know, IF one's stroke is perfect then looking at then CB is not necessary. Please show me a perfect stroke in ALL situations & not just during drills where a near perfect set up is at hand, etc. Also, if the hands follow the eyes, then why would the hand not direct the tip toward the OB instead of the CB? Perhaps it is, except for being held down by the bridge hand but then what about an open bridge? There seem to be a lot going here that does not jive with some of the explanations.
I am not pulling for any horse here & did not establish the race that some seem to have brought up. I just asked a question.
And as is often the case, there seems to be no definitive specific support for either side.
Therefore, I would suggest that each individual do what works best for them as your comparison tests might indicate & not to do what I would suggest because it works for me or even most people. Most of us are not most people. I believe there is a word for statements like that besides a Yogism.
Thanks again Joe & sorry for some of the rant it was just in general & certainly not directed to you specifically..
Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
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Joe,
Thanks for asking.
Again there seems to be some misunderstandings that I can't seem to clear up.
I am not saying that CB last in helping my game. It might be helping my TOI game & hurting it too.
So...let me try it another way. Right now, I could go to the table & shoot very well the way that I have for 4.6 decades. That is, with english or center while looking at the OB area during the stroke. I did so, this past Tuesday, when shooting 6 games of one pocket, after I noticed the CB during the stroke thing while shooting with TOI.
So, it is only when shooting with TOI that I find myself looking at the CB during the stroke. When shooting with TOI my grip also changes to a more firm & full in my hand than my old normal connection to the cue. Also, my stroke changes to a quicker & more compact stroke.
Now, playing with english & playing with TOI are two different styles using too different aspects of the off center hit. For those reasons, I understand the reasons why the grip & stroke become different.
What I do not understand is why my eye focus has changed when as CJ has said one should watch & know where the OB enters the pocket & I understand why that is. The reason is similar to when shooting with english on an ongoing basis. But I am now only seeing the misses. When I pocket the ball with a bit of a firm hit, I hear it pop into the back center of the pocket but do not see it as am focusing on the tip contact spot on the CB during the stroke. But... my eyes do see when & where a mis is.
As I have also said, I am fairly sure that I am not coming up on the mis except for my eyes & perhaps maybe my head just a bit.
There has to be some connection there but I do not know what it is at this time. I will probably figure it out with some effort the next time I have some non playing time at the table, now that I am aware of it.
Thanks again & any idea will be considered.
Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
PS I believe that Mr. Cantrall did an exercise similar to what you outlined earlier & I believe he settled on CB during the stroke. I'm not sure why, but I guess he pocket balls better than way or perhaps his position was better. I don't know.
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One of the things I have learned, and learned to live with, is the idea that playing pool well is a synchronized symphony of mental and physical movements. Change one aspect of the game and it seems to have an effect on many other aspects.
In my attempts I try to change only one thing at a time and then observe how that effects everything else. It is all part of the beauty and the frustration of playing pool. Your new found addition probably requires much further study. Sorry I could not be more helpful.
In my attempts I try to change only one thing at a time and then observe how that effects everything else. It is all part of the beauty and the frustration of playing pool. Your new found addition probably requires much further study. Sorry I could not be more helpful.
Joe,
That's Okay.
At least you did not diagnose me over the internet with out a medical license & then violate my Hippa rights by publishing your diagnosis over the internet.
I agree with you. It's the same in golf & hitting a baseball. One change usually begets another.
I'll report back if I get a good idea of any correlation. I have an idea but I want to check it out on the table first.
Best Regards & Wishes,
Rick