Automatic Shot Clock

[nataddrho]

I would rather see a product that uses a cheap commodity video device like a go-pro to monitor when balls stop moving. Use it with software that runs on a laptop or rasperry pi. Not sure if that would work with spinning balls though.

A ceiling mounted camera with a wide field of view running off of a single board computer like a Pi could probably detect total ball motion for long shots but might fail with tiny movements found in safeties and especially classical carom games like balkline and one cushion. The downside is you need to run power to the ceiling mounted location, and have a mounting point in the first place. I think clipping to a light with a battery won’t work well, beyond typical field of view. Not great options for the average player going to the pool hall for a few hours.

The DigiBall has the advantage that no external equipment is needed… the signal just comes from the ball itself. You just jump on a table and start playing right away.

 

[straightline]

Audio might do it.

 

[nataddrho]

Audio might do it.

For nurses you can barely hear the balls clicking against each other even if there is absolutely no noise.

For pool, Paul Nettle has created an audio-based break speed measuring device using this principle. It is a hardware extension of his famous predator break app. See www.breakdemon.com. His device uses the industrialized raspberry pi compute module.

 

[Badpenguin]

A ceiling mounted camera with a wide field of view running off of a single board computer like a Pi could probably detect total ball motion for long shots but might fail with tiny movements found in safeties and especially classical carom games like balkline and one cushion. The downside is you need to run power to the ceiling mounted location, and have a mounting point in the first place. I think clipping to a light with a battery won’t work well, beyond typical field of view. Not great options for the average player going to the pool hall for a few hours.

The DigiBall has the advantage that no external equipment is needed… the signal just comes from the ball itself. You just jump on a table and start playing right away.

The DigiBall is talking to _something_, right?

There are all sorts of cameras, home security for example, that operate on batteries for months. I would see this more useful for tournament tours and things like that, which wouldn't want a permanent mount. Motion detection in cameras is an extremely established technology.

 

[straightline]

For nurses you can barely hear the balls clicking against each other even if there is absolutely no noise.

For pool, Paul Nettle has created an audio-based break speed measuring device using this principle. It is a hardware extension of his famous predator break app. See www.breakdemon.com. His device uses the industrialized raspberry pi compute module.

Obviously contacts - piezos on the slate and maybe an IR field on the bed.

Why do nurses have to be heard?

 

[fastone371]

I would rather see a product that uses a cheap commodity video device like a go-pro to monitor when balls stop moving. Use it with software that runs on a laptop or rasperry pi. Not sure if that would work with spinning balls though.

Sounds much more complicated than Digiball and a timer. If the camera wont catch spinning balls its really of no use.

 

[nataddrho]

The DigiBall is talking to _something_, right?

The core concept of the DigiBall is that it connects to your smart phone, which almost everyone is assumed to already have on their person at all times.

Extra hardware breaks that model, so it needs to break it for a good reason.

There are all sorts of cameras, home security for example, that operate on batteries for months. I would see this more useful for tournament tours and things like that, which wouldn't want a permanent mount. Motion detection in cameras is an extremely established technology.

The home security cameras have very low power optical triggers built into the sensor, and they are essentially in sleep mode until a cell is activated. They then wake up and record video, stop recording when there is no more optical flow detected in the ISP, and transmit the video to a server. Then they go back to sleep. Most of the time they are sleeping and consuming very little power.

I think that for our application we need a constantly running camera, i.e. active ISP, that is always using optical flow to detect ball motion, with code smart enough to differentiate it from moving heads and cues. This will drain the battery quickly, so you just need a larger battery, or a constant power feed.

We won't be able to convince ASIC manufacturers to front us millions of dollars to modify their sensors to sleep on a different patterns. We are at the mercy of using the available hardware capabilities.

 

[Badpenguin]

The core concept of the DigiBall is that it connects to your smart phone, which almost everyone is assumed to already have on their person at all times.

Extra hardware breaks that model, so it needs to break it for a good reason.


The home security cameras have very low power optical triggers built into the sensor, and they are essentially in sleep mode until a cell is activated. They then wake up and record video, stop recording when there is no more optical flow detected in the ISP, and transmit the video to a server. Then they go back to sleep. Most of the time they are sleeping and consuming very little power.

I think that for our application we need a constantly running camera, i.e. active ISP, that is always using optical flow to detect ball motion, with code smart enough to differentiate it from moving heads and cues. This will drain the battery quickly, so you just need a larger battery, or a constant power feed.

We won't be able to convince ASIC manufacturers to front us millions of dollars to modify their sensors to sleep on a different patterns. We are at the mercy of using the available hardware capabilities.

The DigiBall is only the cue ball, there are up to 15 other balls that need to be monitored for movement. So unless I'm missing something, I don't see where this would help for a shot clock timer. Unless you are talking about an entire set of up to 15 digiballs.

 

[nataddrho]

The DigiBall is only the cue ball, there are up to 15 other balls that need to be monitored for movement. So unless I'm missing something, I don't see where this would help for a shot clock timer. Unless you are talking about an entire set of up to 15 digiballs.

One would just ignore the movement of the other 15 balls with the understanding of the technical limitation. From tests it seems to work fine for casual play.

Three cushion uses only three balls so they can all be DigiBalls.

 

[nataddrho]

Tried this out in the pool hall and it was well received. Everyone liked it so far. The beeps are not annoying at all, compared to how echoey they were in my garage.

 

[Robbiecameron]

Their clock is visible to them every time they go to sit down and turn it off. My experience in using game clocks is that it does speed up play. When the chance to lose the match if they run out of time is looming over them, the slugs put on running shoes.

Another advantage of a chess/game clock for pool is that it encourages the guy who just missed to go back immediately to his seat.

As a regular tournament director for amateur pool tournaments one of my primary goals is to assist the room owner in making a profit by bringing in patrons. Without profitable room owners there will be no rooms. Two of our largest rooms in the northwest have closed in the past couple of years (Legends in Beaverton, OR and 15th Street in Auburn, WA). In my area, there are fewer places to play pool, either due to a shift by room owners away from pool or a shift by room owners placing less of an emphasis on pool; either by not supporting league play or not caring for the equipment or both.

Another of my primary goals is to provide the pool players with the best tournament experience we can. The priorities are providing the best equipment the room owner can afford and a tournament format that allows a fair test of skills.

Scheduling weekend tournaments that reach into the early morning hours is a cost for the room owner, who must pay staff even though little food and beverage is sold and no table time is collected. Late-hour matches are a strain on the players’ ability to perform at their top level as many of us are accustomed to sleep patterns aligned with our jobs.

Our most recent Open 9 Ball tournament used a 32 minute per player match clock with each match scheduled one hour and 5 minutes apart in a race to eight (8). We used four (4) seven (7) foot Diamond tables with Simonis 860HR and Dynasphere balls. There are no “time outs” allowed. The match clock continues running.

Average Skill Level 544 FargoRate

Average Match Duration 0:49:34

Average Game Duration 0:04:08

Number of Matches Ending Early Due to Both Players Time Expiring 4 of 95


We had forty-eight players with a FargoRate from 358 – 724. We played Friday from 6PM until the last match of the evening ended at 10:11PM. On Saturday, play started at 9AM and the last match ended at 11:55PM. We came back on Sunday with a 9AM start and the double elimination final match concluded at 5:10PM. The players that concluded their matches at midnight did not have to play until 10:05AM Sunday morning.

This is our fourth timed match tournament, The first two (2) being eight (8) ball and ten (10) ball singles and the other a team event. We are continually working to improve the match/player timing that utilizes a simple chess clock. If a player times out while behind in games, they lose the match. We have had a few matches that are tied where both players have used their allotted time. In that case, the players lag for the break and play a single game to determine the match winner.

The least desirable element of using per-player match times is the situation that develops and the ensuing process of completing a match when one player runs out of time with a lead in the match. The player trailing in the match is allowed to pocket balls continuously until they win the match or run out of time. They must rack and break with the clock running, as is done throughout the tournament. Ties are handled as previously described. Cue ball in hand fouls only apply in the case of a scratch. Any other foul results in leaving the balls as they lie and continuing to shoot. Unsportsmanlike conduct results in loss of match. For example, intentionally moving balls with the cue stick or the person, etc.

The timed match does not fit the playing routine of the more deliberate players. On the other hand, more than 90% of the players interviewed like the per-player timed format. The ninety-five matches in the bracket are scheduled completely in advance. Spectators and players know what time a match will be played. As a Tournament Director, typically, the most challenging task is to “guestimate” what time a players next match will be. At many tournaments, a match with deliberate players or matches with multiple safety battles results in slowing the entire tournament down and extending player’s wait times. The per-player match timed event does not cut down on the wait time between matches. It may still be seven hours between a player’s last scheduled match and next scheduled match. It does eliminate a player needing to be present “just in case” the tournament gets ahead. It also eliminates a player waiting additional time because the tournament has gotten behind schedule. This has been our best attempt to produce a well-run amateur pool tournament without the benefit of referees or timekeepers.

I look forward to the dialogue this brief may stir many to join in, including Bob Jewett who has proffered this solution for decades!

Regards,
Rob Cameron

Tournament Director, Tim’s Bar & Grill, Kelso, WA

League Operator, Columbia Cascade BCA Pool League #2317
503.410.9194

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Our most recent Open 9 Ball tournament used a 32 minute per player match clock with each match scheduled one hour and 5 minutes apart in a race to eight (8). We used four (4) seven (7) foot Diamond tables with Simonis 860HR and Dynasphere balls. There are no “time outs” allowed. The match clock continues running.
...

Thanks for the detailed report. That's an interesting way to handle expired times.

 

[GideonF]

Our most recent Open 9 Ball tournament used a 32 minute per player match clock with each match scheduled one hour and 5 minutes apart in a race to eight (8).

We are continually working to improve the match/player timing that utilizes a simple chess clock. If a player times out while behind in games, they lose the match. We have had a few matches that are tied where both players have used their allotted time. In that case, the players lag for the break and play a single game to determine the match winner.

The least desirable element of using per-player match times is the situation that develops and the ensuing process of completing a match when one player runs out of time with a lead in the match. The player trailing in the match is allowed to pocket balls continuously until they win the match or run out of time. They must rack and break with the clock running, as is done throughout the tournament. Ties are handled as previously described. Cue ball in hand fouls only apply in the case of a scratch. Any other foul results in leaving the balls as they lie and continuing to shoot. Unsportsmanlike conduct results in loss of match. For example, intentionally moving balls with the cue stick or the person, etc.

Do you have a problem with players who are ahead a couple of games trying to run out the opponent’s clock? For example, if I’m up 6-3 and you have only 7 minutes left, can’t I just tie up the balls to prevent you from running out? Especially if you don’t have BIH for regular fouls - I can play deliberate fouls by hitting say the 5 ball into the 7 so they don’t “go” and when I foul my opponent just has to shoot from there?

(I’m assuming at least that if I foul then my opponent has option to make me shoot from there, so if I foul and leave no shot on the lowest ball my opponent can make me shoot? I’m also assuming you have a 3 foul rule).

 

[maha]

yes then the clock becomes part of your strategy against your opponent. that is not good.

and if a per shot clock, then soon everyone takes the full time and no one shoots fast anymore.

why doesn't anyone just go for the t.d. to ban slow players after giving sufficient warnings to them. who wants them in a tournament.

in gambling its simple, we dont play with them.
its so simple. play along with others speed, or don't come.
no,,, instead lets invent contraptions to do it.

and i had to turn off the video with him and the um's and ah's the whole time. it was torture. if presenting a product you need to verbally be coherent or have someone else do it for you. this is good advice for the future.

 

[Robbiecameron]

We do have ball in hand for regular fouls while both players have time on their clock. Once one players' time expires, BIH is eliminated except for a scratch.
The concept for the chess clock is not to make time a factor in the match. It is to reduce "air time!" Smoke breaks, texting, rest room breaks, etc. The balls are racked immediately following the end of the previous game because the rackers' (alternating break) clock is running even while racking.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

Limit fields/ race length to the size of the venue. Police slow players. It's not rocket science.

 

[GideonF]

We do have ball in hand for regular fouls while both players have time on their clock. Once one players' time expires, BIH is eliminated except for a scratch.
The concept for the chess clock is not to make time a factor in the match. It is to reduce "air time!" Smoke breaks, texting, rest room breaks, etc. The balls are racked immediately following the end of the previous game because the rackers' (alternating break) clock is running even while racking.

Thanks for the clarification.

Still want to know if you have a problem with the player who’s ahead trying to deliberately make the games messy to run out the opponent’s clock.

Also, when I’m up and want to run his clock, presumably I could let my own clock run out to trigger the no BIH rule.

Hopefully nobody does these things. They just occur to me as possible issues. When I’ve watched Ultimate Pool, it’s definitely part of the strategy to run out the match clock when ahead.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... The concept for the chess clock is not to make time a factor in the match. It is to reduce "air time!" Smoke breaks, texting, rest room breaks, etc. The balls are racked immediately following the end of the previous game because the rackers' (alternating break) clock is running even while racking.

A few details:

Do you have a small "start of inning" increment on the clock, as in some chess formats?

If a player's time runs out, does the other player take over the table immediately, and does he take the balls in position?

If the catch-up player is shooting alone, does he ever shoot before the balls stop moving to break up clusters, or intentionally shoot some other foul shot to improve the layout?

 

[Bavafongoul]

How about a 35 seconds timer that counts down with a digital display.
The incoming player starts the clock upon reaching the table after their
opponent misses the clock. At 30 seconds the timer beeps letting the
player know they have 5 secs. remaining to stroke the cue ball.

30 secs. Is plenty of time to analyze the table, choose the shot & execute.
If you need more time than that, don’t enter the tournament because you
are a slow paced player it’s that simple. Either pick up your pace of play or
sit in the stands with the other observers because you simply play too slow.

Now a player should have 15-20 seconds to reach the table when it is their
turn. If a player fails to activate their clock within 30 secs., then forfeit the
inning or else the referee or their opponent may activate their shot clock.

A player failing to execute their shot within the allotted time is a foul and
the opponent gets BIH. This will keep players on their toes and speed the
pace of play. If you can’t handle this tempo, you aren’t suited for tournaments.

Slow play is ruinous, boring, and totally unnecessary except for a beginner that
needs to learn to keep with the traffic flow of the tournament or else just watch.

 

[Bavafongoul]

A few details:

Do you have a small "start of inning" increment on the clock, as in some chess formats?

If a player's time runs out, does the other player take over the table immediately, and does he take the balls in position?

If the catch-up player is shooting alone, does he ever shoot before the balls stop moving to break up clusters, or intentionally shoot some other foul shot to improve the layout?

I think leaving balls, specifically the cue ball, as is invites someone to purposefully run out the clock.
They could intentionally leave the cue ball as is so even their opponent would have any shot blocked.
There needs to be punishment for a shot clock violation; the best incentive to comply would be BIH.