Avoiding double hit on 'easy' shot

[livemusic]

I seem to recall a solution to this from a post way back but can't find it. I've watched several videos I found but have yet to find what I saw. I don't recall if someone just wrote a posted answer or provided a video but I think it was a video. Issue is when cue ball is real close to object ball. It's real hard to put a little quick jab on the cue ball and not commit a double hit. How can you shoot this? Just assume a straight in shot. Easy except for the double hit hazard.

After watching several videos, I tell ya, you'd need high speed video to detect a lot of double hits! Generally, if the cue ball goes forward after initial contact, it's likely it was a double hit. (But not always.)

 

[VarmintKong]

Sup LiveMusic,
If you have a copy of 99 Critical Shots in Pool, review shots #6 and 8.

I know I can get a tendency to shoot too hard when I try to “put a little quick jab on the cue;” since I want to pull it back real fast I’ll stroke real fast for a herky jerky mess. I found a softer stroke can help.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Search for “fouetté”.

pj
chgo

 

[jviss]

I have been thinking about this lately, too. It seems there are two hazards, a double hit and a push shot. I usually try to hit away from the object ball that's touching, or close to touching the cue ball, or hit an an angle to completely avoid either foul. I think that at the speed that tips generally hit cue balls, and the very short duration of contact, it would be impossible to prevent either foul by manipulation of the cue stick.

I bet @dr_dave will have something to say about this.

 

[Pacecar]

Mike Massey's side-arm jab shot:

 

[jviss]

Search for “fouetté”.

pj
chgo

"A fouette is a “whip shot” used when the cue ball and object ball are close together which makes it easy to keep spin on the cue ball. It is also used in ballet to describe “whipped turns” where the dancer whips their leg around performing a pirouette. These can be some of the most difficult shots to learn, but look impressive if you can get them down."

Easy Fouette

 

[livemusic]

Mike Massey's side-arm jab shot:

That's it! (The one I was referring to that I could not find.) Yep. Kudos to you!

 

[The_JV]

***NOTE: Ignore the below paragraph. This is later described as a foul.
If you're only attempting to roll up, then hover the tip cue above the CB and drop it on the edge of the CB. Regardless of the endmass of the cue the CB will squirt forward . This practice can also be performed by raising the tip from below by popping the height of your bridge hand, but it's real easy to do it too slowly.

If I'm attempting to shoot the OB a distance (realistically speaking), then I opt to jack up to create an angle that only allows the cue tip to travel into the CB's space minimallly.

I did just see a video posted in the instructor's sub forum that was meant to argue shooting stance, but has a great example of shooting touch shots. It starts at roughly the 2min mark:

 

[The_JV]

That's it! (The one I was referring to that I could not find.) Yep. Kudos to you!

Oh my apologies... I had it in my head you were curious about extreme proximities between the CB/OB.

I haven't seen that Mike video before. You could do the same by addressing the ball normally and only stroking with the wrist.

 

[dr_dave]

I bet @dr_dave will have something to say about this.

Many ways to both detect and avoid a double hit (include the Mike Massey wrist flick) can be found here:

double hit foul resource page​

Here is a pertinent quote from the page:

The following videos show some interesting methods that can be used to avoid a double hit when there is only a small gap between the CB and OB:

• NV J.30 – FOULS IN POOL … Everything You Need to Know
  • angled hit (7:01)
  • elevated cue (7:14)
  • inside vs. outside spin (7:40)
  • short bridge and stroke (8:22)
  • grip tighten (8:30)
  • highly elevated cue (8:43)
  • smack hand against the rail (9:08)
  • reverse stroke with cue on table (9:28)
• NV B.49 – Using your knuckles to prevent a double hit and stop the cue ball, with Bob Jewett
• NV B.50 – Using your knuckles to prevent a double hit and get follow, with Bob Jewett
• NV B.51 – Using your natural forward stroke limit to prevent a double hit and get draw, with Bob Jewett
• NV B.52 – Using a fouetté shot to prevent a double hit, with Bob Jewett
• gripping the shaft close to a solid bridge hand, as shown at the 2:33 point in NV J.22 – Top 10 Creative Billiards Bridge Options
• side-arm wrist flick method (with Mike Massey)

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...hover the tip cue above the CB and drop it on the edge of the CB.

That's a foul (same as placing the tip under the CB and lifting up). The CB must be struck with a "normal forward" stroke.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

... hover the tip cue above the CB and drop it on the edge of the CB.

That's a foul (same as placing the tip under the CB and lifting up).

FYI, this and other "miscue fouls" are demonstrated at the 16:00 spot here:

FOULS IN POOL ... Everything You Need to Know​

 

[The_JV]

That's a foul (same as placing the tip under the CB and lifting up). The CB must be struck with a "normal forward" stroke.

pj
chgo

FYI, this and other "miscue fouls" are demonstrated at the 16:00 spot here:

FOULS IN POOL ... Everything You Need to Know​

Interesting... Never encountered this before. I can't recall ever doing what I suggested in 'pool' but seen it done in snooker back in the day. I probably got out of the game before anyone ever cited the practice as illegal.

That said, can either of you define "forward" stroke...? To the best of my knowledge a vertical masse' shot is not illegal, but doesn't contain a forward motion.

 

[dr_dave]

... can either of you define "forward" stroke...?

"Forward" is relative to the direction the cue is pointing (with the tip going forward toward the ball).

To the best of my knowledge a vertical masse' shot is not illegal, but doesn't contain a forward motion.

Any elevated-cue shot is fine if the cue is stroked in the direction the cue is pointing, with the tip going forward.

 

[David in FL]

It’s not always possible, but for some shots you can grip the cue so that when you make your stroke, your grip hand strikes, and is stopped by the table just as the tip makes contact with the cue ball. It can be an effective way to control a very short follow through.

 

[The_JV]

"Forward" is relative to the direction the cue is pointing (with the tip going forward toward the ball).

Any elevated-cue shot is fine if the cue is stroked in the direction the cue is pointing, with the tip going forward.

ok.... I guess I'm going to split some hairs but what I suggested is fine, if there's a forward component...?

I did note that you called the lifting/lowering of the tip "unsportsmanlike". Tad harsh I think personally. Wildly different then the example of someone intentionally miscuing to make the otherwise impossible shot.

Regardless... the raise/lower is a bad approach, if even potentially sold as a legal hit. Best to ignore that advice from me....

 

[dr_dave]

It’s not always possible, but for some shots you can grip the cue so that when you make your stroke, your grip hand strikes, and is stopped by, the table just as the tip makes contact with the cue ball. It can be an effective way to control a very short follow through.

FYI, this and every other approach is demonstrated via the video links in my post above.

 

[dr_dave]

ok.... I guess I'm going to split some hairs but what I suggested is fine, if there's a forward component...?

When you wrote: "hover the tip cue above the CB and drop it on the edge of the CB," I originally thought you meant "hold the cue mostly horizontal with the tip above the front edge of the CB and let the tip drop down." But now it sounds like you meant was "hold the cue mostly vertical with the tip above the CB and let the cue drop down." Nothing wrong with that, assuming there is no push, double hit, or intentional miscue (or any other foul).

I did note that you called the lifting/lowering of the tip "unsportsmanlike".

The penalty for an "unsportsmanlike conduct" foul is at the discretion of the referee based on the situation. If a player did the tip lift/drop thing because they just don't know any better, that is one thing. But if one is purposefully using the tactic against an unsuspecting opponent and has been previously warned not to do it, then that is something else entirely.

 

[hang-the-9]

ok.... I guess I'm going to split some hairs but what I suggested is fine, if there's a forward component...?

I did note that you called the lifting/lowering of the tip "unsportsmanlike". Tad harsh I think personally. Wildly different then the example of someone intentionally miscuing to make the otherwise impossible shot.

Regardless... the raise/lower is a bad approach, if even potentially sold as a legal hit. Best to ignore that advice from me....

A manipulation of the rules done on purpose is unsportsmanlike conduct. Say grabbing a cueball before it dislodges a cluster for your opponent when you miss a hit or just hitting balls randomly on the table. Using an illegal stroke may be considered the same thing, but it's more likely to just be a standard foul called not a loss of game foul.

 

[The_JV]

When you wrote: "hover the tip cue above the CB and drop it on the edge of the CB," I originally thought you meant "hold the cue mostly horizontal with the tip above the front edge of the CB and let the tip drop down." But now it sounds like you meant was "hold the cue mostly vertical with the tip above the CB and let the cue drop down." Nothing wrong with that, assuming there is no push, double hit, or intentional miscue (or any other foul).

Nope, you had my intentions right the first time. Mostly horizontal / drop down... If it's universally considered an illegal hit (even if I think the physics don't support that) then it's illegal and should be avoided.

The penalty for an "unsportsmanlike conduct" foul is at the discretion of the referee based on the situation. If a player did the tip lift/drop thing because they just don't know any better, that is one thing. But if one is purposefully using the tactic against an unsuspecting opponent and has been previously warned not to do it, then that is something else entirely.

I bolded the key to the argument. Purposely fouling is not unsportsmanlike. Knowing that you are going to do something that can be left up to interpretation as to whether or not your opponent should benefit from your potential foul is unsportsmanlike.