Back cut type shots

G

Guda

Registered
Does anybody know why a 'back cut' type shot is SO much more difficult than a normal cut shot of the same angle? And, what is the best way to aim these types of shots?



- Dazed and Confused
 
Because you are shooting to a "blind" pocket?
Hell, thin cuts are hard enough.
Much more when your angle of approach is away, way away, from the ball and way away from the pocket.:D
Then again, a contact point is a contact point or the ghost ball is still in the same location, right?
We need 8BallBanger to explain this.:p
 
In order for you to shoot a "back cut", you must apply enough spin on the cue ball...with just enough speed ....so when the spin and speed contact the object ball..the spin "bites or holds" on the ball enough to throw the ball..hopefully into the pocket...
...lotsa luck!!!

*note* have you ever seen a bowling ball go down the lane ..going straight, spinning sideways and the all of a sudden it breaks into the pins?
 
The back cut is [in my opinion] cutting the ball from the back side. You do this by cutting it with a lot of inside spin, and actualy going around the back side and hitting a point you really can't see shooting straight at the ball. It kinda whips out and back into the ball.......
Works for me.................
blud.
 
Joseph Cues said:
Because you are shooting to a "blind" pocket?
Hell, thin cuts are hard enough.
Much more when your angle of approach is away, way away, from the ball and way away from the pocket.:D
Then again, a contact point is a contact point or the ghost ball is still in the same location, right?
We need 8BallBanger to explain this.:p
Click to expand...

Cutting balls "backwards" is an illusion. The reason they "seem" so much harder is because the pocket, the cueball and the object ball are at opposing angles and thus hard to take in all at once. The only time you need to masse' into the object ball is when it does not go without it.

Basically it's like this - no matter where the cueball and the object ball lie in relation to one another you will only be able to cause the cueball to contact the half of the object ball that is facing the cueball without any masse' on the cueball. Now here's the illusion:

The cut angle is less than 90 degrees from the line through the pocket and the object ball on almost any shot. But it appears to be more because of the visual reference to the pocket as opposed to the intersecting lines. Now, any time the cut angle is less than 90 degrees the ball goes when the cueball is propelled straight along the correct line. When the cut angle is 90 degrees or more then an angle must be "created" with a masse' shot.

It is also possible to "spin" the ball in by using lots of opposing spin to sort of rub the object ball and throw it into the pocket. I am not sure that this is really what's happening but I do it all the time so I certainly believe in it.

John
 
I nearly always try to over cut or cheat the pocket these backcuts and hit the shot with nice table speed if possible...works for me.
 
Well since Joseph asked so nicely...

I agree with the blind pocket theory, it is generally considered a perception problem.

I've heard it can help to imagine:

a) a channel to the pocket from the ball
b) a pocket (or point) on the table closer to the object ball along the line to the pocket, so the pocket is no longer blind.
c) a rail that runs from the edge of the object ball to the pocket

But I've never really had a problem with cutting them in, so I just shoot the ghost.

8ballbanger
 
But I've never really had a problem with cutting them in, so I just shoot the ghost.
Click to expand...
You better aim thicker then but since the ghost ball aiming doesn't work....:D
I agree. Line up that ghost, stick to it, and shoot/stroke straight to it.
 
I really wouldn't listen to 8ballbanger on cutting balls, he limits his knowledge of the game by listening to "facts" from no-name players. He even thinks Keith McCready, who has been playing pool probably twice as long as 8ballbanger has been alive, was wrong. Hey 8ballbanger, when some other pros tell you that you can cut balls at 90 degrees, you'd better bring your "C" player idols with you to prove them all wrong. Oh, and yes, please have a clue as to where the 3 ball should be on a 6x12 snooker table before you pretend like you know everything about that "certain shot."
 
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Guda said:
Does anybody know why a 'back cut' type shot is SO much more difficult than a normal cut shot of the same angle? And, what is the best way to aim these types of shots?

Set up the shot you're having a tough time with and then before you shoot (long before you shoot) in the standing position go around and physically try to pick out the exact spot on the cue ball that has to hit the intended contact point on the object ball.
(This is the spot on the cue ball that runs parallel to the object balls line to the pocket)
Once you've picked the spot on the front of the cue ball and you're in the shooting position, do your absolute best to mentally hold and visualize the spot on the front of your cue ball and draw a straight line from that spot to the ob's contact point. Stay absolutely straight (do not steer the shot) when shooting the shot. Use medium speed and a half a tip of outside spin. I repeat, do not steer the shot at the last second. Be willing to accept the make or the miss. Be a good observer of the shot. If you miss, don't blame the object ball (it never moved) blame your perception of the spot on the front of your cue ball and keep trying to get in touch with that spot before, during and after the shot.

Joe T, you can email me for a more detailed method of how to quickly and effectively pick out the spot you're looking for.
Click to expand...
 
Hi Joe,

I for one would love to hear more on this because this is one of those shots that I really don't have a great feel for. My email is dkoopman@statestreet.com if you get a chance.

Thank you,
Dave
 
Pro-player

Please forgive me if I can't get the terminology right, but is this correct?

The 3 ball should be on the the Baulk line where the left side of the arc intersects the line. I really don't know if there is a name for the arc. The 7 spot is in the middle of the table at a point 324mm (12.75 inches) from the foot rail.

I don't know how 8ballbanger got 83 degrees, because I only got 79 when I drew it out. (Yes, I used AutoCAD since I had it and I'm a geek. I even took the size of the balls (2-1/16) into account).

How about this shot.

Put a ball exactly at the center spot. Put 3 balls in a line on the Baulk line with one end ball exactly in the center. Remove the middle ball in the line. Use the remaining end ball on the baulk line to cut the center table ball into the side pocket. That works out to be an 86 degree cut by my calculations/method.

If that works, leave the middle ball and remove the one on the spot on the baulk line. That should be exactly 90 degrees.

I'd be really interested to know how it goes.
 
pro-player said:
If you draw lines to it, the shot looks like a 7. How is that less than 90 degrees?
Click to expand...

Look dude,

Snooker was my main game before I went to pool.

I constructed a scale diagram and measured the angle before I opened my mouth. Did you?

Its an optical illusion, just going to show that you don't have a clue what 90 degrees is.

You are a fool. Think before you reply to this.

Cheers - 8ballbanger
 
pro-player said:
If you draw lines to it, the shot looks like a 7. How is that less than 90 degrees?
Click to expand...

Since the ball on the 7 spot doesn't go straight across the table, it really doesn't look like a seven. The angle formed by the cue ball path and the OB path works out to be 79 degrees at best.

79 is less than 90.

Try the shots I described (try to read the whole post) and let us know how it went.
 
Mungtor said:
Since the ball on the 7 spot doesn't go straight across the table, it really doesn't look like a seven. The angle formed by the cue ball path and the OB path works out to be 79 degrees at best.

79 is less than 90.

Try the shots I described (try to read the whole post) and let us know how it went.
Click to expand...

I would go along with the 79 degree cut, as when I did the measurement the only clear marking on my protractor were 90, 60 and 30 degrees, so the 83 was an estimate that swayed to the side of a thinner shot.

Just out of a bazzare co-incidence, 83 would be close to the ghost ball that already compensated for throw (thinner hit pro-player), but thats another story.
:)

Cheers - 8ballbanger
 
Guda said:
Does anybody know why a 'back cut' type shot is SO much more difficult than a normal cut shot of the same angle? And, what is the best way to aim these types of shots?



- Dazed and Confused
Click to expand...

Could someone please put this on the wei table so that I will know exactly what shot you are referring to? Is the one I put below something like what you are talking about?

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html



START(
%Ag4F8%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%IL7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pl4R7%Ws3Z3%Xk8C5%[j5D1%\h0F3
%]g5H2%^k6R6
)END

Laura
 
Well since I made that one too easy I'll give you a chance to get your money back. Put the cue ball the third ball width from the left rail and a ball on the 7 spot and I'll make it in the left pocket.

Curious to see what that angle is.

Then my friend here is going to make a spot shot on a pool table without hitting a rail. Too easy? Well how about if he draws a spot shot past the side pocket BEFORE hitting a rail? Still want to get your money back?

See the guy we came in with at the counter? Take the cue ball and the one ball and put a playing card between them, pull the card out and he'll jump the cue ball over the one and make that ball over there in the corner.

Don't underestimate the things people can do.

What I like on this thread is 8ballbanger telling someone he drew a scale diagram and measured the angle............then a couple of posts before this one he says his protractor only shows 90, 60 and 30 degrees, so he had to make an ESTIMATE on the angle!!!!!!!!!!! REAL SCIENTIFIC. Like when Albert Einstein was working at the patent office he made a GUESS about the theory of relitivity on his coffee break.

I like people when they want to learn how to play pool and they try to dissect every little thing, argue you can't do this, you can't do that, buy funky looking cue balls, paper bullshit to lay on the table for angles, lasers to sight the ball, mirrors to bank balls, layered tips, spliced shafts, smoke to blow up everybodys ass, etc. etc. etc.

Get out and hit balls by the thousands and thousands, watch good players and PLAY, PLAY, PLAY!
 
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stevelomako said:
Well since I made that one too easy I'll give you a chance to get your money back. Put the cue ball the third ball width from the left rail and a ball on the 7 spot and I'll make it in the left pocket.

Curious to see what that angle is.

Then my friend here is going to make a spot shot on a pool table without hitting a rail. Too easy? Well how about if he draws a spot shot past the side pocket BEFORE hitting a rail? Still want to get your money back?

See the guy we came in with at the counter? Take the cue ball and the one ball and put a playing card between them, pull the card out and he'll jump the cue ball over the one and make that ball over there in the corner.

Don't underestimate the things people can do.

What I like on this thread is 8ballbanger telling someone he drew a scale diagram and measured the angle............then a couple of posts before this one he says his protractor only shows 90, 60 and 30 degrees, so he had to make an ESTIMATE on the angle!!!!!!!!!!! REAL SCIENTIFIC. Like when Albert Einstein was working at the patent office he made a GUESS about the theory of relitivity on his coffee break.

I like people when they want to learn how to play pool and they try to dissect every little thing, argue you can't do this, you can't do that, buy funky looking cue balls, paper bullshit to lay on the table for angles, lasers to sight the ball, mirrors to bank balls, layered tips, spliced shafts, smoke to blow up everybodys ass, etc. etc. etc.

Get out and hit balls by the thousands and thousands, watch good players and PLAY, PLAY, PLAY!
Click to expand...

I know a guy like this. He practices by himself for hours and hours. He has cut out little targets he tries to get the cb to land on after a shot. He video tapes himself. He tries to mathematically figure out all the possible angles. He'll have a book on the table trying to emulate everything in the book, and you know what? I'm sure you all know the answer already, he can't shoot a lick!
I don't agree with everything Pro Player says, actually I'd like to play him sometime, but he's right about playing by feel. You have to be able to play by feel if you're ever going to get good at this game. There are times when you're over a ball and the shot is damn near impossible but you know (I don't mean think) that you're going to make that shot and you do. There are other times when you're over a shot and for some reason you can't see the shot even though it's a shot you've made a thousand times. And this is where I disagree with PP. It is helpful sometimes to have a crutch like an aiming system or even a damn fine looking lady looking at you while you're shooting. Anything that will prop you up when your game starts going south. And if you're human, your game is going to go south once in a while (no disrespect intended for you southerners).
 
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