Ball-in-hand ethical question

I once always told them but now I have changed views. It is not my duty to be referee. If they ask when I foul then of course I tell them but you should know the rules and PAY ATTENTION. If the game isn't even worth your attention then it doesn't even matter what the result is.

Eric.
 
BazookaJoe said:
I am sorry, but I disagree with a lot of you guys.
If the other guy is not in the game, it is not my fault. Most of the time, I will roll the ball in disgust after a foul. (A sure admission of a foul)
If the guy asks "Was that a foul?" I will say yes.
If he walks to the table to kick at a ball when he actually has ball in hand, it is not my fault he was doing something more important than playing his match. That is why you only use the restroom on your turn.

A quarterback doesn't ask if the defense is paying attention before calling his audible.
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How about if he dropped a $20 on the ground and you're the only one who noticed it?


Chris
 
I rack balls said:
I once always told them but now I have changed views. It is not my duty to be referee. If they ask when I foul then of course I tell them but you should know the rules and PAY ATTENTION. If the game isn't even worth your attention then it doesn't even matter what the result is.

Eric.
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I seem to remember a video where Earl decided that it wasn't his duty to report a foul when the referee didn't see it.

Even though it was an obvious foul caught on video. I lost pretty much all respect for his sportsmanship after that.
 
PoolSharkAllen said:
Earlier in this thread, I mentioned that my opponent was repeatedly giving me soft, slug racks. We all know that giving your opponent slug racks happens all the time in pool. Is this not cheating on his part, in trying to nullify my break shot advantage?

In league play, walking out when someone cheats is not much of an option as you forfeit the match.
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If that happens then when he rack go and look at the rack, if you don't like it you can ask for a rerack. Keep asking for one until its either done righ or he states that you can rack your own. Put the pressure back on him and dont back down.
 
TATE said:
How about if he dropped a $20 on the ground and you're the only one who noticed it?


Chris
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I'd give it back to him
Anything else is theft

But we arent playing "drop the money"
 
I feel that if you foul, you should be a man and admit it on your own. I know a couple of guys at my local poolroom that are notorious for treachery like this....and I just choose not to play them. If its a league situation, there are usually captains and teamates watching the matches, so the team captains should be able to resolve any conflicts. JMO.

Southpaw
 
BazookaJoe said:
I'd give it back to him
Anything else is theft

But we arent playing "drop the money"
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It is an interesting conversation because we are learning where we each draw the line. You believe an opponent should pay attention to the match and should be penalized if they make a foul oversight and don't consider it dishonest. I feel the good sportsmanship thing is to point out a clear and obvious oversight.

There are many examples of this type of different thinking in sports. I like the story of Ben Hogan, who went into the woods, knocked a ball out, and finished the hole. He corrected his opponent and caddy when they marked the score one stroke too low. He said he addressed the ball in the leaves and it moved. So he added a stroke.

His opponent, shocked at his honesty, thanked him. After all, nobody but Ben could have seen the ball move.

Ben looked at his opponent puzzled. "You may as well thank a man for not robbing a bank!".

There is no right or wrong as long as you're following the rules, but there is more the perception of sportsmanship and it can take different views.

Chris
 
TATE, you have a good way of looking at it when you say that it's a matter of where you draw the line. The Ben Hogan example is a nice story.

That seems to be a good analogy for a situation in pool where you ever-so-slightly touch the cueball with your tip on a practice stroke. When I do that, I always call a foul on myself. Even though it stings to give up ball in hand, it wouldn't sting as bad as knowing I scammed someone out of the ball in hand they are entitled to. The other bright side is that accepting the punishment makes it less likely that I'll repeat that mistake again.

For those who said they don't call the obvious fouls on themselves, would you call non-obvious ones? I'm talking about the ones that your opponent would have no reasonable way to know about, that no one would have called a ref over to watch. For example, the practice stroke that touches the cueball so slightly that the cueball doesn't move.

Regarding someone shooting the wrong ball, just for the record, I wouldn't feel obligated to warn him. IMO, offering information about a foul that I know I did make is completely different from offering information about a foul that I believe that they will make. One is being honest, while the other is coaching.

The only thing I don't like about it is having to tell the guy afterwards that he fouled. Unfortunately, when a human makes a stupid mistake, the tendency seems to be to blame anyone else but himself instead of reflecting to find the true cause of the mishap. Immediately, it tends to make the person look at you like you're trying to pull something shady on him, when it's not that at all. Of course, there are ways to tell the person they fouled without making him feel stupid, which is a courtesy I am always happen to extend to him. :)

This is, of course, JMO, and it could possibly change in the future if I heard a persuasive enough argument.
 
Cuebacca said:
TATE, you have a good way of looking at it when you say that it's a matter of where you draw the line. The Ben Hogan example is a nice story.

That seems to be a good analogy for a situation in pool where you ever-so-slightly touch the cueball with your tip on a practice stroke. When I do that, I always call a foul on myself. Even though it stings to give up ball in hand, it wouldn't sting as bad as knowing I scammed someone out of the ball in hand they are entitled to. The other bright side is that accepting the punishment makes it less likely that I'll repeat that mistake again.

For those who said they don't call the obvious fouls on themselves, would you call non-obvious ones? I'm talking about the ones that your opponent would have no reasonable way to know about, that no one would have called a ref over to watch. For example, the practice stroke that touches the cueball so slightly that the cueball doesn't move.

Regarding someone shooting the wrong ball, just for the record, I wouldn't feel obligated to warn him. IMO, offering information about a foul that I know I did make is completely different from offering information about a foul that I believe that they will make. One is being honest, while the other is coaching.

The only thing I don't like about it is having to tell the guy afterwards that he fouled. Unfortunately, when a human makes a stupid mistake, the tendency seems to be to blame anyone else but himself instead of reflecting to find the true cause of the mishap. Immediately, it tends to make the person look at you like you're trying to pull something shady on him, when it's not that at all. Of course, there are ways to tell the person they fouled without making him feel stupid, which is a courtesy I am always happen to extend to him. :)

This is, of course, JMO, and it could possibly change in the future if I heard a persuasive enough argument.
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One time I was playing a guy for money, we were hill/hill and he had BIH. He set the cueball up to the 3 but was on the 2. I pointed it out and he said "I'm just lining up my next position, but thank you anyway". My reward was he hooked himself on the 3, kicked it in, and ran out anyway. Oh well.

Chris
 
Let me ask this question to everyone who said that they wold call Foul on themselves?

Do you call the police up and tell them that you just ran a stop light and that you need a ticket?

Do you tell you boss that you took off work 5 minutes early and that you need to be docked that time??

Good for you if you Do. Hipicritical if you dont!!

Its a game, Part of stratigising is paying attention and knowing the rules. If I miss my opponets foul then shame on me, I deserve to loose. But If asked, and not truthful, then shame on you.
 
I remember in either a B or USPPA tournament, I once hit a ball so thin that my opponent swears I missed it, but from my vantage point staring at it I KNOW 100% that ball wiggled a good 1/256 of an inch!

Situations like that are where it is good to have a cache of trust and respect built up with folks you regularly play against or amongst - thus I always call my own fouls.

I WILL sit quietly until -->after<-- someone shoots the wrong ball or group! That is a lessen best left to take it's own course! :D

Jonny B.
 
once i miss my turn at the table is ended. i do not say anything to my opponent - simple as that. i wont shark my opponent by talking in the chair and likewise i do not feel i am obligated to point out to my opponent shooting the wrong ball from the chair. of course if my opponent asks me if it is ball in hand or if it was a scratch i always give an honest answer.
 
not calling a foul on yourself when you know you fouled may as well be referred to as cheating. A good player does it because they dont want to win that way. And although it has been mentioned in previous responses I will say it again with one word...Karma. Dont make the pool gods unhappy
 
I have been in situations like this many times. If I foul, I always call it on myself.

Once, I was a rail bird watching a high stakes match when this situation came up. The incoming player did not see the foul as he was trying to romance the waitress when the other player fouled and did not call it but the backers on both sides did see it.

MOST of the people involved eventually turned to me to make the call since I didn't have anything bet on the match and was know for my honesty and integrity. All I said was, "Sorry, I'm not involved in the game.", because I knew anything I said would not make an difference to some of those involved and I wanted to stay out of it.

Before it was over, I realized I was the only one in the room that didn't have a gun. No shots were fired but the gentleman with the Uzi won the decision by default. LOL
 
bubsbug said:
Let me ask this question to everyone who said that they wold call Foul on themselves?

Do you call the police up and tell them that you just ran a stop light and that you need a ticket?

Do you tell you boss that you took off work 5 minutes early and that you need to be docked that time??

Good for you if you Do. Hipicritical if you dont!!

Its a game, Part of stratigising is paying attention and knowing the rules. If I miss my opponets foul then shame on me, I deserve to loose. But If asked, and not truthful, then shame on you.
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um, most people stop at red lights - it keeps people from crashing into each other:rolleyes: . for me, as far as telling the boss that you take off a little early, i think that is all subjective to what field you are in. the majority of the time when i worked in an office i was hustling so much throughout the day that five minutes or whatever meant nothing.
 
Stones said:
I have been in situations like this many times. If I foul, I always call it on myself.

Once, I was a rail bird watching a high stakes match when this situation came up. The incoming player did not see the foul as he was trying to romance the waitress when the other player fouled and did not call it but the backers on both sides did see it.

MOST of the people involved eventually turned to me to make the call since I didn't have anything bet on the match and was know for my honesty and integrity. All I said was, "Sorry, I'm not involved in the game.", because I knew anything I said would not make an difference to some of those involved and I wanted to stay out of it.

Before it was over, I realized I was the only one in the room that didn't have a gun. No shots were fired but the gentleman with the Uzi won the decision by default. LOL
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Hey Stones, that doesn't make me want to gamble at all now! LOL :eek:
 
If I can see that my opponent doesn't know it's ball-in-hand, I always tell them. I can't say that I have always lived by that rule, but I'd have to go back to my teenage years to remember a time where I might have not said anything.

For me, it's a matter of being happy with myself. Would I be happy with myself knowing that I, effectively, cheated? And is it really cheating? I happen to think it is and, since I'm only concerned with being happy with myself here, my opinion is all that matters in this situation. Unfortunately, like I said, I do feel like it's cheating and I would not be happy with myself if I cheated to win. Not to mention, I don't want to be known as one of the scoundrels of this game. We have enough of them. I want to be able to walk into the pool room and know that I am not one of the ones contributing to the shady side of pool.

I pulled my share of moves when I was a kid but, fortunately, that is behavior that I have since outgrown. The problem is, when you grow up hanging out in a pool room, your values can become quite twisted. After all, the best players around - the people that you look up to the most as an aspiring player - are giving you little pearls of wisdom like, "snooze you lose" and, "it's all about getting the money". It is up to you, as an individual, to make up your own mind and rise above the [low] standards that so many other pool players set. I'm not saying I'm perfect. I'm not immune to throwing out the occasional whine when I get bbq'd, but cheating, or adopting the philosophy of "it's all about getting the money", is something that I will not do. Which, incidentally, might be why I have to work for a living. :D
 
Jimmy M. said:
If I can see that my opponent doesn't know it's ball-in-hand, I always tell them. I can't say that I have always lived by that rule, but I'd have to go back to my teenage years to remember a time where I might have not said anything.

For me, it's a matter of being happy with myself. Would I be happy with myself knowing that I, effectively, cheated? And is it really cheating? I happen to think it is and, since I'm only concerned with being happy with myself here, my opinion is all that matters in this situation. Unfortunately, like I said, I do feel like it's cheating and I would not be happy with myself if I cheated to win. Not to mention, I don't want to be known as one of the scoundrels of this game. We have enough of them. I want to be able to walk into the pool room and know that I am not one of the ones contributing to the shady side of pool.

I pulled my share of moves when I was a kid but, fortunately, that is behavior that I have since outgrown. The problem is, when you grow up hanging out in a pool room, your values can become quite twisted. After all, the best players around - the people that you look up to the most as an aspiring player - are giving you little pearls of wisdom like, "snooze you lose" and, "it's all about getting the money". It is up to you, as an individual, to make up your own mind and rise above the [low] standards that so many other pool players set. I'm not saying I'm perfect. I'm not immune to throwing out the occasional whine when I get bbq'd, but cheating, or adopting the philosophy of "it's all about getting the money", is something that I will not do. Which, incidentally, might be why I have to work for a living. :D
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You clearly put into words my exact feelings and it holds a lot of weight coming from a serious tournament player. This is why you have such a good rep too in the pool world.

Chris
 
TATE said:
How about if he dropped a $20 on the ground and you're the only one who noticed it?


Chris
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"hey look its Pamela Anderson" as my foot slowly covers the $20 and move it towards me picking it up.Then i offer to buy him a few beers on me.:eek: ;)
 
bubsbug said:
Let me ask this question to everyone who said that they wold call Foul on themselves?

Do you call the police up and tell them that you just ran a stop light and that you need a ticket?

Do you tell you boss that you took off work 5 minutes early and that you need to be docked that time??

Good for you if you Do. Hipicritical if you dont!!

Its a game, Part of stratigising is paying attention and knowing the rules. If I miss my opponets foul then shame on me, I deserve to loose. But If asked, and not truthful, then shame on you.
Click to expand...

If I could convince myself that I was doing nothing wrong, then I would have no problem adopting the "snooze you lose" mentality. In your case, you believe that's the right way so, if you're happy with yourself and don't feel like you have done anything wrong by not letting an ignorant opponent know that you have fouled, then you've done the right thing. I can't guarantee that any onlookers will agree with you. No matter what you do you'd be criticized by someone from "the other camp". As for myself, I'd rather be criticized for being an honest idiot than a cheater.
 
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