Ball In Hand In Kitchen Shot Legal?

Tennesseejoe said:
If the base of the object ball is just out of the kitchen but part of it is in the kitchen, I can still shoot the object ball down to a corner pocket. In this case no part of the cue ball has crossed the line. Let's rethink....
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FranCrimi said:
If you have bih behind the head string, the cue ball must pass the head string regardless of where the object ball is. Therefore in the instance you cited, with bih behind the head string, the shot would be illegal.
Click to expand...

FranCrimi, please, read this rule again (you are misleading Tennesseejoe):

6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String
When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact. If such a shot is intentional, it is unsportsmanlike conduct.
The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game.
 
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Tennesseejoe said:
If the base of the object ball is just out of the kitchen but part of it is in the kitchen, I can still shoot the object ball down to a corner pocket. In this case no part of the cue ball has crossed the line. Let's rethink....
Click to expand...
FranCrimi:
If you have bih behind the head string, the cue ball must pass the head string regardless of where the object ball is. Therefore in the instance you cited, with bih behind the head string, the shot would be illegal.
Click to expand...
pooler:
Please, read this rule again (you are misleading Tennesseejoe)
Click to expand...
I think Fran believes Joe is talking about shooting a ball into a foot corner pocket ("down to a corner pocket"), in which case she's correct about that kind of shot.

That's what Joe's comment sounds like to me too.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I think Fran believes Joe is talking about shooting a ball into a foot corner pocket ("down to a corner pocket"), in which case she's correct about that kind of shot.

That's what Joe's comment sounds like to me too.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Well, I am talking about facts

TennesseeJoe said: If the base of the object ball is just out of the kitchen...

And, as I pointed out in one of the the previous posts there is the often overlooked fact that if the base of the object ball is directly on the line or (obviously) out of the kitchen (even if a part of the OB is still in the kitchen) you can shoot it any way you like and into any pocket you like...

You can hit it directly, legal shot
We have to be precise about things :)
 
pooler said:
... And, as I pointed out in one of the the previous posts there is the often overlooked fact that if the base of the object ball is directly on the line or (obviously) out of the kitchen (even if a part of the OB is still in the kitchen) you can shoot it any way you like and into any pocket you like...
Click to expand...

I agree with you about this (and, therefore, I disagree with Fran and pj).
 
pooler said:
Well, I am talking about facts

TennesseeJoe said: If the base of the object ball is just out of the kitchen...

And, as I pointed out in one of the the previous posts there is the often overlooked fact that if the base of the object ball is directly on the line or (obviously) out of the kitchen (even if a part of the OB is still in the kitchen) you can shoot it any way you like and into any pocket you like...

You can hit it directly, legal shot
We have to be precise about things :)
Click to expand...

Well, if we are being technical, you can't shoot it "any way you like" - you have to shoot it with the CB behind the headstring.

Gideon<----parsing words.
 
FranCrimi said:
... The base of the ball rule is intended for balls standing still. It was never intended for balls in motion or things that can't be seen with the naked eye.
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On thinking about it some more, even under the pre-2008 rules which required the cue ball to hit something not in the kitchen before hitting something in the kitchen, the referee had to judge whether a moving cue ball had crossed the line or not.

An example situation is at 14.1 when a player scratches with a full rack on the table and the incoming player wants to take a foul and leave the cue ball on the head rail. (It is illegal to place the cue ball frozen to the head rail and just touch it, of course.) One standard way to do that is to shoot nearly parallel to the head string, have the cue ball go over the line, hit a side cushion and spin back into the kitchen. On that shot the referee must determine whether the moving cue ball crossed the line or not.
 
FranCrimi said:
If you have bih behind the head string, the cue ball must pass the head string regardless of where the object ball is. ...
Click to expand...
Except when the object ball is out of the kitchen but by less than one ball diameter. Then it is perfectly legal and often the best play to contact that object ball while the cue ball is actually still in the kitchen.

One example that might surprise some people is that if an object ball has been spotted on the head spot (which happens frequently at 14.1) and the cue ball is in hand (in the kitchen after a scratch) it is legal to shoot the ball on the head spot. And although you would probably shoot it into a side pocket or a foot pocket, you might want to shoot it into a head pocket as it can result in a good break at 14.1.
 
pooler said:
Well, I am talking about facts

TennesseeJoe said: If the base of the object ball is just out of the kitchen...

And, as I pointed out in one of the the previous posts there is the often overlooked fact that if the base of the object ball is directly on the line or (obviously) out of the kitchen (even if a part of the OB is still in the kitchen) you can shoot it any way you like and into any pocket you like...

You can hit it directly, legal shot
We have to be precise about things :)
Click to expand...
You're right - I completely overlooked the language you highlighted in red.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I think Fran believes Joe is talking about shooting a ball into a foot corner pocket ("down to a corner pocket"), in which case she's correct about that kind of shot.

That's what Joe's comment sounds like to me too.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Right. That's how I interpreted it. If that's not what he meant, then I misunderstood.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I guess you'd have to determine it beforehand (by estimating the ghost ball position? I don't suppose you could use another out-of-play ball for that...).

What happens if it isn't declared one way or the other beforehand? Does the call go for or against the shooter?

pj
chgo
Click to expand...

Along our original line of thought....

It's a tricky situation, even trying to get a call before the fact. You can't use any devices to measure where you think the base of the cb would wind up at impact. The ref can tell you some things ahead of time but nothing that would be considered helping the shooter. If it's questionable, the shooter probably shouldn't take the chance, because the ref will have to guess and those types of hits usually will go against the shooter.
 
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GideonF said:
Well, if we are being technical, you can't shoot it "any way you like" - you have to shoot it with the CB behind the headstring.

Gideon<----parsing words.
Click to expand...

Well, if we are being technical :)

The whole thread is about " Ball In Hand In Kitchen"; there was no need to mention that again :)

However, just think about it a little more, comprehensively :)

With such position of the OB, thus, not in the kitchen:
in both cases:
- ball in hand (anywhere)
or
- ball in hand behind the head string
you can shoot such a ball, directly, legal shot :)

Therefore:

you can shoot it "any way you like" is correct
 
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Wow, great point...I didn't know that.


Bob Jewett said:
Except when the object ball is out of the kitchen but by less than one ball diameter. Then it is perfectly legal and often the best play to contact that object ball while the cue ball is actually still in the kitchen.

One example that might surprise some people is that if an object ball has been spotted on the head spot (which happens frequently at 14.1) and the cue ball is in hand (in the kitchen after a scratch) it is legal to shoot the ball on the head spot. And although you would probably shoot it into a side pocket or a foot pocket, you might want to shoot it into a head pocket as it can result in a good break at 14.1.
Click to expand...
 
I think Fran believes Joe is talking about shooting a ball into a foot corner pocket ("down to a corner pocket"), in which case she's correct about that kind of shot.

pj
chgo
Click to expand...
Fran:
Right. That's how I interpreted it. If that's not what he meant, then I misunderstood.
Click to expand...
I don't know if that's what he meant, but it turns out you and I were both wrong about it being an illegal hit. If the base of the OB is out of the kitchen, the base of the CB doesn't have to cross the head string before contacting it.

Who knew?

pj
chgo
 
Bob Jewett said:
On thinking about it some more, even under the pre-2008 rules which required the cue ball to hit something not in the kitchen before hitting something in the kitchen, the referee had to judge whether a moving cue ball had crossed the line or not.

An example situation is at 14.1 when a player scratches with a full rack on the table and the incoming player wants to take a foul and leave the cue ball on the head rail. (It is illegal to place the cue ball frozen to the head rail and just touch it, of course.) One standard way to do that is to shoot nearly parallel to the head string, have the cue ball go over the line, hit a side cushion and spin back into the kitchen. On that shot the referee must determine whether the moving cue ball crossed the line or not.
Click to expand...

Right --- that's a pretty common and perfectly acceptable move, but again, it was an eyeball situation --- not where the ref was able to actually measure whether or not the base of the ball crossed the line.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Except when the object ball is out of the kitchen but by less than one ball diameter. Then it is perfectly legal and often the best play to contact that object ball while the cue ball is actually still in the kitchen.

Am I correct to assume that is based on the assumption that the base of the cb will have to cross head string in order to make contact with the object ball? Two questions: 1) I couldn't find the particular rule or regulation that states that. Can you direct me to it? 2) How do you measure that the ball is a ball's diameter from the head string if it's illegal to use devices, such as balls, to measure?

One example that might surprise some people is that if an object ball has been spotted on the head spot (which happens frequently at 14.1) and the cue ball is in hand (in the kitchen after a scratch) it is legal to shoot the ball on the head spot. And although you would probably shoot it into a side pocket or a foot pocket, you might want to shoot it into a head pocket as it can result in a good break at 14.1.
Click to expand...

From what I recall, this is true because it is accepted that if the base of the object ball is precisely centered on the head string --- which can only be accepted absolutely if it's on the spot, it is considered out of the kitchen.
 
Bob Jewett said:
Except when the object ball is out of the kitchen but by less than one ball diameter. Then it is perfectly legal and often the best play to contact that object ball while the cue ball is actually still in the kitchen.

Am I correct to assume that is based on the assumption that the base of the cb will have to cross head string in order to make contact with the object ball? Two questions: 1) I couldn't find the particular rule or regulation that states that. Can you direct me to it? 2) How do you measure that the ball is a ball's diameter from the head string if it's illegal to use devices, such as balls, to measure?

One example that might surprise some people is that if an object ball has been spotted on the head spot (which happens frequently at 14.1) and the cue ball is in hand (in the kitchen after a scratch) it is legal to shoot the ball on the head spot. And although you would probably shoot it into a side pocket or a foot pocket, you might want to shoot it into a head pocket as it can result in a good break at 14.1.
Click to expand...

Regarding the ball spotted on the head spot --- From what I recall, this is true because it is accepted that if the base of the object ball is precisely centered on the head string --- which can only be accepted absolutely if it's on the spot, it is considered out of the kitchen.
 
To reiterate... If an object ball is out of the kitchen it is legal to shoot that ball when you have ball in hand. If the object ball is on the line or just barely over the line, and you shoot that ball straight into a foot pocket, the cue ball will not have left the kitchen before hitting the object ball. This is permitted by the rules.

I hope that no one thought otherwise but from some of the comments, I wonder.
 
Bob:
...when the object ball is out of the kitchen but by less than one ball diameter. Then it is perfectly legal and often the best play to contact that object ball while the cue ball is actually still in the kitchen.
Click to expand...
Fran:
Am I correct to assume that is based on the assumption that the base of the cb will have to cross head string in order to make contact with the object ball?
Click to expand...
Fran, that means the CB does not have to cross the head string in order to make contact. If the OB's base is less than a diameter outside the head string, then the CB's base can be behind the head string when touching it.

pj
chgo
 
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