Banking Tips

[Flip_dat_Quarta]

Last night I starting working on bank shots, which I rarely do, and I discovered the following:

1. When the bank angle is narrow: You can usually hit it hard and the ball will almost come back perpendicular to the rail. That makes them very easy to aim and make. English is not needed.

2. When the bank angle is wide: The bank angle doesn't shorten with high speed. Hitting them hard has little effect because the cushion doesn't compress as much. The object ball sort of skims off the rail rather than compressing and popping back out. In this case, english should be used to shorten the bank angle, not speed.

3. When the bank angle is right in between narrow and wide: Hitting them hard doesn't really shorten them that much. The effects of english are very strong which makes it hard to judge the correct amount of english to use. It's best to shoot these with medium speed and no english to follow the natural bank angle.

These notes only apply to the normal straight backs and cross side/cross corner banks that you typically shoot in rotation or 8-ball.

It's also important to note that when I mention "bank angle" I am referring to the incoming angle into the rail and it's mirrored reflection angle out. (The mirrored reflection angle is not the actually rebound angle of the object ball).

For example, when you approach a bank: First you will find the natural angle (incoming angle = outgoing angle). Then you will want to shorten the angle by aiming further down the rail. By aiming further down the rail you are increasing the "bank angle" I am referring to. You can only aim so far down the rail before you change the shot from a narrow bank angle to a wide bank angle in which case you have to change the english/speed combo as stated above.

Hopefully I didn't confuse you too much with that last paragraph. My point is that it's important to note where you are in regards to the three situations above. It's helpful to see where the transition point is to determine where you will need to start using english over speed.

I hope this helps, good luck!

 

[bbb]

maybe you could define "wide angle"/"narrow angle"
cant comment on your statements without some definitions

 

[Drop The Rock]

Last night I starting working on bank shots, which I rarely do, and I discovered the following:

1. When the bank angle is narrow: You can usually hit it hard and the ball will almost come back perpendicular to the rail. That makes them very easy to aim and make. English is not needed.

2. When the bank angle is wide: The bank angle doesn't shorten with high speed. Hitting them hard has little effect because the cushion doesn't compress as much. The object ball sort of skims off the rail rather than compressing and popping back out. In this case, english should be used to shorten the bank angle, not speed.

3. When the bank angle is right in between narrow and wide: Hitting them hard doesn't really shorten them that much. The effects of english are very strong which makes it hard to judge the correct amount of english to use. It's best to shoot these with medium speed and no english to follow the natural bank angle.

These notes only apply to the normal straight backs and cross side/cross corner banks that you typically shoot in rotation or 8-ball.

It's also important to note that when I mention "bank angle" I am referring to the incoming angle into the rail and it's mirrored reflection angle out. (The mirrored reflection angle is not the actually rebound angle of the object ball).

For example, when you approach a bank: First you will find the natural angle (incoming angle = outgoing angle). Then you will want to shorten the angle by aiming further down the rail. By aiming further down the rail you are increasing the "bank angle" I am referring to. You can only aim so far down the rail before you change the shot from a narrow bank angle to a wide bank angle in which case you have to change the english/speed combo as stated above.

Hopefully I didn't confuse you too much with that last paragraph. My point is that it's important to note where you are in regards to the three situations above. It's helpful to see where the transition point is to determine where you will need to start using english over speed.

I hope this helps, good luck!

I'm sorry but the only point in here that is correct out of the 3 is the first one. Wide and "in between" angles can both shorten significantly. The general rule that the harder you hit the bank the shorter it will go and the softer you hit the longer it will go is a lot better to go by when learning how to bank. For cross banks speed is really important as well.

I'm not sure what you mean when you describe your banking "system" but there are a couple of important things to keep in mind:

When banking a ball you can change three things: angle, speed, or spin (ass). Some players just adjust speed or spin in order to make a bank with out changing the angle between the cue ball and object ball. Beginners should stick to speed first of course.

The concept of banking with no spin (left or right) at a consistent speed is another method where you adjust the angle between the cueball and object ball. I believe this is what you were talking about.

The best bankers like Chicago bugs or John Brumback have their own methods. Those guys developed their own systems. In my opinion this is the best thing a player can do. I play a lot of one pocket and banking is extremely important, especially at softer speeds.

You also don't typically need more than a tip of english unless you are trying to play shape/prevent the cueball from taking a natural path.

 

[Flip_dat_Quarta]

maybe you could define "wide angle"/"narrow angle"
cant comment on your statements without some definitions

I thought about defining narrow and wide angles but it's too dependent on other factors to list an exact angle range(ex. table, cut angle, etc..). Just try shooting a lot of banks hard at various angles and eventually you'll notice that when the angle gets wide enough the banks don't shorten up very much. I guess you can call this 'the point of no return'. It's important to figure out where 'the point of no return' angle is so that you can start adding some spin to make the shot rather than relying solely on speed. I hate to say it, but it's just something you'll have to experiment with and get a feel for.

 

[Flip_dat_Quarta]

I'm sorry but the only point in here that is correct out of the 3 is the first one. Wide and "in between" angles can both shorten significantly. The general rule that the harder you hit the bank the shorter it will go and the softer you hit the longer it will go is a lot better to go by when learning how to bank. For cross banks speed is really important as well.

I'm not sure what you mean when you describe your banking "system" but there are a couple of important things to keep in mind:

When banking a ball you can change three things: angle, speed, or spin (ass). Some players just adjust speed or spin in order to make a bank with out changing the angle between the cue ball and object ball. Beginners should stick to speed first of course.

The concept of banking with no spin (left or right) at a consistent speed is another method where you adjust the angle between the cueball and object ball. I believe this is what you were talking about.

The best bankers like Chicago bugs or John Brumback have their own methods. Those guys developed their own systems. In my opinion this is the best thing a player can do. I play a lot of one pocket and banking is extremely important, especially at softer speeds.

You also don't typically need more than a tip of english unless you are trying to play shape/prevent the cueball from taking a natural path.

Thanks for the reply. This is not a system by any means. And you don't have to agree with me but this is the way I see it. Sure all that other beginner stuff is true but that's all the obvious stuff. We're not beginners here, so why are you explaining beginner concepts?

I assume you play a lot of one pocket? In one pocket you don't bank balls hard. You hit them at pocket speed. This post is about firing balls in with confidence and the relationship between the bank angle and the amount you can shorten a bank at high speed. One pocket banking is a whole different thing and does not apply here.

 

[Spimp13]

Sure all that other beginner stuff is true but that's all the obvious stuff. We're not beginners here, so why are you explaining beginner concepts?

There are a lot of beginners that read the forums. I'm not sure why you posted this. What may be obvious to one person is not obvious to another.

 

[Flip_dat_Quarta]

There are a lot of beginners that read the forums. I'm not sure why you posted this. What may be obvious to one person is not obvious to another.

There are 1000's of articles and videos explaining all the beginner concepts. Why would I rewrite that stuff? Why waste everyone's time?

 

[Drop The Rock]

Thanks for the reply. This is not a system by any means. And you don't have to agree with me but this is the way I see it. Sure all that other beginner stuff is true but that's all the obvious stuff. We're not beginners here, so why are you explaining beginner concepts?

I assume you play a lot of one pocket? In one pocket you don't bank balls hard. You hit them at pocket speed. This post is about firing balls in with confidence and the relationship between the bank angle and the amount you can shorten a bank at high speed. One pocket banking is a whole different thing and does not apply here.

You ask why we are talking about beginner concepts but don't think you can shorten "in between" angles very much with speed? I'm explaining beginner concepts because it sounds like you think you know what you are talking about but actually don't.

This post was supposed to be about "tips" but I don't see anything here about a tip other than "go bank all kinds of shots at all kinds of angles."

One pocket is not a "whole different thing" If I'm trying to win the game or lock someone up the speed of the bank depends on my cue ball. Have you tried shooting a 2 rail Z bank into a corner at soft speed? Or a 3 rail, 4 rail, 5 rail?

I also play 9 ball, 10 ball and 8 ball and can "fire em in with confidence" lol.

Somebody call John Brumback!

 

[Spimp13]

There are 1000's of articles and videos explaining all the beginner concepts. Why would I rewrite that stuff? Why waste everyone's time?

It's obvious you just aren't getting it, and you don't have to rewrite a bunch of stuff to help out beginners regardless if there are 1000s of articles and videos explaining beginner concepts.

But go on with these threads you keep creating like why get so caught up in fundamentals, diamond systems don't work on diamond tables, bank tips when it sounds like you don't understand some of the concepts you are trying to explain. Carry on.

 

[Drop The Rock]

It's obvious you just aren't getting it, and you don't have to rewrite a bunch of stuff to help out beginners regardless if there are 1000s of articles and videos explaining beginner concepts.

But go on with these threads you keep creating like why get so caught up in fundamentals, diamond systems don't work on diamond tables, bank tips when it sounds like you don't understand some of the concepts you are trying to explain. Carry on.

Wait a minute?! Matt, this is the guy who said diamond systems don't work on diamond tables? LOL!

 

[Flip_dat_Quarta]

It's obvious you just aren't getting it, and you don't have to rewrite a bunch of stuff to help out beginners regardless if there are 1000s of articles and videos explaining beginner concepts.

But go on with these threads you keep creating like why get so caught up in fundamentals, diamond systems don't work on diamond tables, bank tips when it sounds like you don't understand some of the concepts you are trying to explain. Carry on.

I'm not getting what? Is there some big insider secret here that I don't get? You're agreeing with me that I don't have to rewrite beginner crap, thanks. Was there a point to this comment?

 

[Spimp13]

I'm not getting what? Is there some big insider secret here that I don't get? You're agreeing with me that I don't have to rewrite beginner crap, thanks. Was there a point to this comment?

No, I said you don't have to re write a bunch of stuff to help beginners. I didn't agree with you that you don't have to rewrite beginner crap. Last time I checked we all started out as a beginner and even though some information can be found elsewhere, this is a pool forum. I am sure many people that are starting the game and joining the forum would appreciate seeing information on the main page for beginners regardless if it has been repeated in the past.

People can post a few things without having to write paragraph after paragraph to help out.

 

[Flip_dat_Quarta]

You ask why we are talking about beginner concepts but don't think you can shorten "in between" angles very much with speed? I'm explaining beginner concepts because it sounds like you think you know what you are talking about but actually don't.

This post was supposed to be about "tips" but I don't see anything here about a tip other than "go bank all kinds of shots at all kinds of angles."

One pocket is not a "whole different thing" If I'm trying to win the game or lock someone up the speed of the bank depends on my cue ball. Have you tried shooting a 2 rail Z bank into a corner at soft speed? Or a 3 rail, 4 rail, 5 rail?

I also play 9 ball, 10 ball and 8 ball and can "fire em in with confidence" lol.

Somebody call John Brumback!

One pocket is different. This post is about 1 rail banks only as I mentioned before. Why do I keep having to explain the same thing to you?

Maybe the in-between angles I'm referring to and the in-between angles you are referring to are two different things? Maybe you don't understand the concept that I am explaining at all? I don't know. Like I said before, you don't have to agree with me. Go on playing the way you've been playing and you'll stay right where you are.

Hopefully someone out there will find this post useful. Good day sir.

 

[Drop The Rock]

One pocket is different. This post is about 1 rail banks only as I mentioned before. Why do I keep having to explain the same thing to you?

Maybe the in-between angles I'm referring to and the in-between angles you are referring to are two different things? Maybe you don't understand the concept that I am explaining at all? I don't know. Like I said before, you don't have to agree with me. Go on playing the way you've been playing and you'll stay right where you are.

Hopefully someone out there will find someone this post useful. Good day sir.

How do I explain this so that you can understand? Every bank starts with 1 rail! Changing the angle, speed or spin for that first 1 rail bank changes the entire rest of the shot. This is fact we are moving in to.

Stay right where I am lol?! I wish PJ were here right now lol. You sound just like Rick.

If I don't go on playing the way I have and suddenly decide to take advice from your posts I'd probably backtrack! I went from not being able to run more than 4 balls in 8 ball when I first started playing to be able to run 6+ in one pocket (10 is my record), and a 2 pack in 9 ball (I don't play enough 8 ball these days). I have improved constantly over a period of 2 and a half years. Even more so lately because I worked on, drum roll pleaseeeee: fundamentals!

Spimp? Do you remember the guy who asked what the big deal with center ball was lol? He made that firework exit calling everybody out? These guys sound very much alike.

 

[Flip_dat_Quarta]

How do I explain this so that you can understand? Every bank starts with 1 rail! Changing the angle, speed or spin for that first 1 rail bank changes the entire rest of the shot. This is fact we are moving in to.

Stay right where I am lol?! I wish PJ were here right now lol. You sound just like Rick.

If I don't go on playing the way I have and suddenly decide to take advice from your posts I'd probably backtrack! I went from not being able to run more than 4 balls in 8 ball when I first started playing to be able to run 6+ in one pocket (10 is my record), and a 2 pack in 9 ball (I don't play enough 8 ball these days). I have improved constantly over a period of 2 and a half years. Even more so lately because I worked on, drum roll pleaseeeee: fundamentals!

Spimp? Do you remember the guy who asked what the big deal with center ball was lol? He made that firework exit calling everybody out? These guys sound very much alike.

Congrats on your abilities?? Should I be impressed? Are you done improving? Forget it, I don't care. Stop derailing my post. Adios!

 

[Spimp13]

Spimp? Do you remember the guy who asked what the big deal with center ball was lol? He made that firework exit calling everybody out? These guys sound very much alike.

How can forget this epic trainwreck of a thread lol

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=405425&highlight=centerball

There were multiple things that happened in that thread that were not shocking to me.

1. OP makes a facepalm comment how using centerball makes it more likely to miss a shot
2. OP eventually gets a much deserved ban after the events that followed
3. Rick (English!) once again ruins a thread posting over 100 times in it to get his post count

 

[galipeau]

Before this escalates into a big thing, just remember that not everyone is going to have the same interpretation of what's going on. We all observe things differently.

To the OP, have you read Banking with the Beard? I would highly recommend it. That book was written by a master banker, and the physics of some of his points are still debated today. Try not to get offended when someone disagrees with your tips or advice. We don't know who you are, so don't take it personally. I don't agree with everything you wrote, but that's based on my own observations and readings.

Thank you for sharing, and I hope we can all have a friendly discussion and learn something without getting heated. Sometimes it's good to step away and come back to a post later before responding.

 

[Flip_dat_Quarta]

Before this escalates into a big thing, just remember that not everyone is going to have the same interpretation of what's going on. We all observe things differently.

To the OP, have you read Banking with the Beard? I would highly recommend it. That book was written by a master banker, and the physics of some of his points are still debated today. Try not to get offended when someone disagrees with your tips or advice. We don't know who you are, so don't take it personally. I don't agree with everything you wrote, but that's based on my own observations and readings.

Thank you for sharing, and I hope we can all have a friendly discussion and learn something without getting heated. Sometimes it's good to step away and come back to a post later before responding.

Thank you sir. And yes, I have read that book.

 

[Drop The Rock]

How can forget this epic trainwreck of a thread lol

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=405425&highlight=centerball

There were multiple things that happened in that thread that were not shocking to me.

1. OP makes a facepalm comment how using centerball makes it more likely to miss a shot
2. OP eventually gets a much deserved ban after the events that followed
3. Rick (English!) once again ruins a thread posting over 100 times in it to get his post count

Ktrepal! Thats who it was! That guy called me a liar because I posted about playing $100 one pocket and a $500 set. In both posts I explain how I dogged it lol. Why would I make up a scenario where I lose?

 

[Bob Jewett]

...
I hope this helps, good luck!

As has been pointed out, what you said is mostly wrong. You need to spend some more time on the table. Also, it may help you to visit Dr. Dave's most excellent pool site. It's free.