Bar Box english question

[jed1894]

I have a 8' bar box table with worn out felt/cloth and bottom english is just about non-existent. Until I replace the felt, I was wondering if Elk Master tips help with english better since they are softer? The three tips I have are Triangle, Le Pro (med) and Elk Master (soft).

I guess my real question is does Elk Master help with bottom english better?

thanks, JED

 

[lewdo26]

You should be able to draw your cueball no matter what tip, cloth, cue, or cueball size, Jed. I've played with pretty crammy equipment myself, and, despite not being very accomplished at this game, I've never encountered anything that kept me from drawing my rock a good table length or so.

I suspect the tip isn't going to have much of an effect. I'd still encourage you strongly to slap some good cloth on that barbox to get it going!

Oh, and if you got an oversized cueball (which I see on most barboxes), do yourself a favor and dump it in favor of a regular cueball. The big apple is the worst evil pool has ever suffered in regard to equipment. Everything else is a breeze by comparison.

 

[fxskater]

Chalk is the only thing i can think of that will screw with my draw shot. Don't jump on me here, i can draw from full table length away from OB back to full table length. I find that if the chalk is bad though, finding the area that you need to hit a draw shot with is a little tougher, but only because of confidence. With shitty chalk, any time you have to put a lot of english on the ball (tops bottoms included) it is MENTALLY tougher. If you can't draw because of shitty cloth then you have a stroke problem. You should be able to draw at least an inche or two with just the ferrule, with no tip on it, if you are stroking it correctly, so tip type should not be a factor. Hell with a phenoic breaking tip i can get table length draw fairly easy. I'll give you the same draw tip i give everyone.

Take a stripe ball and set it on the table so the stripe is exactly horizontal. Now strike it on the bottom of the stripe with the center of your cue tip. That is about the lowest you can hit the CB and get draw. Practice with a stripe for a while and clean the ball after every hit so you can inspect your chalk mark and make sure you are hitting it where you aim. Make sure you have a long smooth follow through. I can't think of exactly what my wrist is doing, some people say to snap it and some people say not to, but the best advise i would give is keep it loose. That should give you the right movement, just keep all your muscles real nice and loose.

 

[Qnut]

Chalk is the only thing i can think of that will screw with my draw shot. Don't jump on me here, i can draw from full table length away from OB back to full table length.

No offense Ryan, I have read a lot of your posts and generally agree with your general opinions, but I guarantee you that I've played with "equipment" combinations that you couldn't draw the length of the table from 2 feet away.

Draw is probably my strongest suit (to the point where I generally use it more often than I should), but I've played on bar boxes with crappy cloth & balls and a mottled, grapefruit-sized cueball that refused to be drawn more than a couple feet no matter what you tried.

The easiest (and cheapest) way to get better action on a lousy table is a nice new red circle cue ball. I have a pretty crappy 8-footer in my garage, and though the cloth isn't totally shot, and the balls aren't "horrible," just swapping a nice, clean red circle cue ball gives me an extra half-table of draw.

My 2 cents...

~Chris

 

[jed1894]

thanks for advice....

The cloth on my table is at least 6 years old. I think I'll try the striped ball drill and see if it's me.

thanks again.

 

[excessknowledge]

I have a 8' bar box table with worn out felt/cloth and bottom english is just about non-existent. Until I replace the felt, I was wondering if Elk Master tips help with english better since they are softer? The three tips I have are Triangle, Le Pro (med) and Elk Master (soft).

I guess my real question is does Elk Master help with bottom english better?

thanks, JED

If you have the big cueball you really need to put a power draw on the cue to make it come back.Only change you may have when you change to the regular cue ball is it may come out where the balls do and no longer the hole where it usually does.Regular cueball and your draw will probibly come back.I saved the big cue and use it for practice training some.It helps keep my powerstroke in tune.I practice long draws with it some.Once you can get that piece of dead weight down you can take a reagular ball and break out well.You will need to lengthen your bridge and really get down on the ball.If that what your problem is.good luck

 

[hemicudas]

Oh, and if you got an oversized cueball (which I see on most barboxes), do yourself a favor and dump it in favor of a regular cueball. The big apple is the worst evil pool has ever suffered in regard to equipment. Everything else is a breeze by comparison.

The oversized cue balls of today are just that, oversized. Not over weight, compaired to the white bowling balls that they called cue balls back in the 70s.

I wish you guys that missed it could have seen Keith McCready maneuver those monsters around. Those old United and Irving K bar tables were tough as nails to play position on. The Valley tables had the small magnetic cue balls and were easy to draw but switching from a Valley to a United was a true bitch, unless you were Keith, Dan Louie and a hand full of others.

 

[Koop]

The oversized cue balls of today are just that, oversized. Not over weight, compaired to the white bowling balls that they called cue balls back in the 70s.

I wish you guys that missed it could have seen Keith McCready maneuver those monsters around. Those old United and Irving K bar tables were tough as nails to play position on. The Valley tables had the small magnetic cue balls and were easy to draw but switching from a Valley to a United was a true bitch, unless you were Keith, Dan Louie and a hand full of others.

I just recently played on a barbox with an extremely heavy cueball. My hat goes off to anyone who execute a good draw shot with those things. I couldn't do crap besides stop and follow.

 

[telkwa]

i too thought like fxskater - that i could draw anything back a fairly good distance, but then i played on this baxbox that had TWO layers of loose, crappy old cloth. i'd juice up the cueball for all i was worth and it would come flying back a whopping 12 inches! unless the cueball was right behind the OB, any non-rolling english would get eaten alive by this doubly-layed cloth. i thought my stroke had completely deserted me until i went to a pool hall and on the first shot that i'd needed to dig into the cueball, it came back about a table length MORE than what i'd wanted.

 

[lewdo26]

The oversized cue balls of today are just that, oversized. Not over weight, compaired to the white bowling balls that they called cue balls back in the 70s.

I wish you guys that missed it could have seen Keith McCready maneuver those monsters around. Those old United and Irving K bar tables were tough as nails to play position on. The Valley tables had the small magnetic cue balls and were easy to draw but switching from a Valley to a United was a true bitch, unless you were Keith, Dan Louie and a hand full of others.

Hemi, you know what's interesting? I asked Keith himself about the big cueball, right here in this forum. He gave me a few useful tips... That's when I was trying to win this single elimination 9 ball bar tourney. Eventually I said, screw it, I just hate this damn big thing!

My problem with the big cueball isn't draw shots. I just can't AIM with the damn thing. Yeah, I heard the story about cutting your shots thinner and all that. But what's the parameter for thin??? Every shot with that thing looks thick!

If the oversized cueballs in the 70s were worse than today's as you say they were, I think I would of taken up ping pong instead of pool. Really, I tip my hat to Ether and Dan Louie, but I just don't get it...

 

[jed1894]

My table has the regular size cue ball. It just comes out with the rest of the balls at the other end of the table. I also have a Mag. cue ball that I also use. My table is set up for Mag. ball, not the over size.

JEd

 

[Billy_Bob]

Specific equipment can make for longer draws or more consistent draws, but you should be able to draw with just about anything - on any cloth.

My problem was drawing too far or too short depending on the condition of my tip. i.e. inconsistent draw. So I worked on this for two months. I went with a dime shaped Moori III Q (hard) pig skin tip. I keep my tip dime shaped and resurface it about once a week with a sandpaper dime shaped shaper. I just lightly sand "one time around" so the tip has a new surface all over. I need a new tip about every 6 months, but I can replace my own, so no problem.

But you should be able to draw with any tip or any tip shape. I feel that keeping the tip a specific shape and always the same surface condition will eliminate a lot of variables - and help you to learn to draw specific distances - each time, every time.

So the other night I'm playing and need to draw back 6 inches. I did it. Next I needed to draw back 1 ft. I did it. Everyone is saying "nice draw". Well I have worked and worked on this, so no big deal for me.

The first thing is to learn to draw. Follow through until your cue tip stops 6 inches past where the cue ball is. Have someone watch you. Slowly stroke the cue ball - just enough speed to make the ball into the pocket - then leave the tip of your cue STOPPED 6 inches past where the cue ball was - touching the cloth on the table. Leave it there for 4 seconds!

Have firend make sure you are doing this every time.

Stroke slowly - just enough speed to make ball into pocket.

Chalk tip well, especially around the sides of the tip.

Hit low on the ball, follow through, hit slowly.

Practice - Line up row of balls across table. Place cue ball 1 diamond back from object ball. Shoot with draw to make ball into corner and draw back cue ball 1 diamond. Keep practicing (every day for 2 months).

Note: The cue ball spins backwards when you hit it with draw. As it rolls down the table, the backwards spin stops, then the ball slides, then the ball begins a forward roll. Thus draw shots where the cue ball is a long distance from the object ball are very difficult. Practice with a striped ball as the cue ball and watch what happens as it travels down table. May want to video tape it to see it in slow motion.

High speed video "close-up" of a good draw shot...
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-38.htm

 

[jed1894]

I know this has been answered before, but my friend noticed that I have a developed a "poke" when I'm trying to hit bottom english. I haven't video-taped myself yet, but what I believe I've started to do is poke at the cue ball when trying bottom english. However, I make good contact and usually make the OB. How much will poking interfer with english?

JED

 

[Billy_Bob]

I know this has been answered before, but my friend noticed that I have a developed a "poke" when I'm trying to hit bottom english. I haven't video-taped myself yet, but what I believe I've started to do is poke at the cue ball when trying bottom english. However, I make good contact and usually make the OB. How much will poking interfer with english?
JED

Actually "english" refers to hitting the left or right side of the cue ball, hitting the top is called follow, and hitting the bottom is called "draw".

So far as the poke, that is why it is important to practice the above "following through" and leaving the tip of your cue 6 inches past where the cue ball was - and leave it there for 4 seconds. And to have a friend watch to be sure you do it each time!

Doing this many times will help to train you to not poke, but stroke slowly and smoothly, then slowly retract your cue just in time for the ball to roll back.

Hitting too hard and poking is bad, bad, bad...

Try the slow follow through and see what happens....

 

[Billy_Bob]

P.S. Light grip on butt of cue!

My friend (who is an excellent player) grips his cue so lightly, that recently he hit a fast shot and his cue went flying across the room!

Light grip best. Holding on to the butt of your cue, like you are a passenger in a car with Mario Andretti driving, is not good for draw if you ask me...

 

[TheConArtist]

So far as the poke, that is why it is important to practice the above "following through" and leaving the tip of your cue 6 inches past where the cue ball was - and leave it there for 4 seconds. And to have a friend watch to be sure you do it each time

Nyce advice there, i use to do almost the same thing to make shure that i was staying down on my shots, plus i taught my gyrlfriend and cousin the same thing, what i use to do was, after each shot, i would still be in my stance and stroke the cue again so this way i developed a good habit to stay down until the ball dropped or the cueball stopped, I seen allison doing this when she missed a ball or something went wrong like double checking her mechanics. Give it a try, after you strike the cueball, stay in your position and stroke again, But after all it is not needed if you already stay down on your shot, and have a good follow through. Cole 'TheConArtist'