Bar Tournament 8-ball Strategy

[mszelis]

Last night I went to an 8-ball bar tournament over in Anderson, SC. Of course they don't play by BCA rules but instead bar rules (No safeties and whatever you make on the break, you have to take, no ball in hand). Now this brought up two interesting points. First, whether or not it was an advantage to break. Because if you pocket a solid you have to be solids, why would you want to break? I figured the whole advantage to breaking was so that you could pick your own ball group...? I actually started thinking that it might be a disadvantage to break (assuming you pocket a ball) because that would be one less ball you could shoot at and one less ball to be in your opponents way. What do you guys think?

Also, because you can't play safties, what do you think the best strategy is? In R. Givens book "The Eight Ball Bible" he explains that the best way to play bar-table 8-ball is to "Float like a butterfly and sting like a bee." You hook your opponent with deadly safties after they knock down most of their balls and then run out on them. Now my question is (in addition to what everyone thinks about the break being a disadvantage) is whether this strategy would hold true for the rules that this tournament goes by. Am I better waiting until my opponent knocks down most of his balls and then trying my luck at running out or should I just play offensively and try to hit my balls down whenever I can?

 

[Gregg]

No offense, but that kind of eight ball game would drive most pool enthusiast nuts.

 

[StrokeofLuck]

Not to mention - you play any safeties in a jungle rules tourney like that and you might not get out with your life

 

[FLICKit]

Not to mention - you play any safeties in a jungle rules tourney like that and you might not get out with your life

Plus, without ball in hand rules, even if you give him a lock up tight safety, what's to say that he won't just tap the cue ball.

Ever use the old scratch on purpose trick, when your opponent only has 1 ball or more and there all in the kitchen?

 

[Catahula]

Barroom Safeties

I've played in enough bars over time to recognize early on when the conditions are not right to start playing safeties with the locals. There are a lot of disparaging terms out there for safeties as well as the people who are playing them.
The art (read: skill) arrives when you learn to play safely as opposed to playing safeties. Shooting plausible shots but leaving the opponent stiffed when you do miss. "Oops..can you just believe where that cue ball ended up".
Everyone has there own rules. Think of the rules as a stick that is used to keep everyone in line (12 yrs. Catholic School learning that one).
The trick is to learn how to beat them to death with their own stick.

Bottom line...

if you like the bar
you like the patrons
there is no serious cash on the line
and you want to keep coming back
then
Play it however they like to play it and make some new friends.

 

[Billy_Bob]

With the bar rules "no safety" rule, this just gives an advantage to the better players who can "mask" their safeties and make it look like an attempt to pocket a ball.

How this is done: When you have a shot, you have 6 pockets to choose from. So you can shoot that ball at any of the 6 pockets. And doing this will *also* determine where the cue ball will go after the shot.

The key in the safety is to leave the cue ball in a nasty spot.

So instead of an obvious cut shot on a ball, say bank it and use follow to leave the cue ball against the far rail. Or you could bank it and use draw to leave the cue ball on the near rail. Or call a two rail bank with follow to leave the cue ball on another rail. Just be sure you don't aim exactly right - don't make the ball. After shooting, say "Darn!" (Of course you are jumping for joy because you left the cue ball in a nasty spot.)

So you are playing by the rules. You are attempting to pocket a ball.

Also you can shoot a kick shot and "accidentially" hit one of your opponent's balls. Say "Darn! I was way off on that shot!"

Or the "intentional miscue". Miscue on purpose and say "Darn! I need to get a new tip!"

(I don't like bar rules because of these things BTW. I feel safeties should be allowed and openly called. More fair for everyone.)

Some players are not good at breaking and will always let their opponent break. So just try it and see what happens. Just say, "You can break!" or "I hurt my wrist and can't break. You can break!"

 

[FLICKit]

Just to respond to some of your comments:

Sounds like you haven't factored in the prospects of making 1 or more of each type of balls on the break. That would add some good potential to the breaker.

Open after the break, often gives too strong an advantage to the breaker. Chances of winning for a good player with the break are pretty high. Especially in short race matches (especially when race to 1).

Closed after a break, gives the breaker a slightly less than 50% odds of getting the favorable balls. But in return, having first turn at the table, even with the least favorable set of balls, allows the shooter to alter/impact the lay of balls before they're done with their turn. As a result, matches are more often won by outwitting your opponent since it increases the chances that both players will at least get a turn.

Dry break: well makes no difference if it's open or closed after the break.

Overall, open or closed after the break is not that big a deal. You still have to be able to play the game. Closed after the break reduces the chances of winning from the break, without opponent even shooting.

Been in many a tournament where it's race to 1, the opponent wins the flip, breaks and wins without even getting a turn at the table.

 

[FLICKit]

With the bar rules "no safety" rule,...

Sounds like this is where the pool hustler started from... Any little pretend maneuver to get an edge...

clarification: Not accusing you, just sayin in general...

 

[SPINDOKTOR]

If your not confortable with the rules, Dont play.

There are many ways to play safe, being obviious on a bar box may lead to many bad things.

SPINDOKTOR

 

[cuetechasaurus]

With the bar rules "no safety" rule, this just gives an advantage to the better players who can "mask" their safeties and make it look like an attempt to pocket a ball.

How this is done: When you have a shot, you have 6 pockets to choose from. So you can shoot that ball at any of the 6 pockets. And doing this will *also* determine where the cue ball will go after the shot.

The key in the safety is to leave the cue ball in a nasty spot.

So instead of an obvious cut shot on a ball, say bank it and use follow to leave the cue ball against the far rail. Or you could bank it and use draw to leave the cue ball on the near rail. Or call a two rail bank with follow to leave the cue ball on another rail. Just be sure you don't aim exactly right - don't make the ball. After shooting, say "Darn!" (Of course you are jumping for joy because you left the cue ball in a nasty spot.)

So you are playing by the rules. You are attempting to pocket a ball.

Also you can shoot a kick shot and "accidentially" hit one of your opponent's balls. Say "Darn! I was way off on that shot!"

Or the "intentional miscue". Miscue on purpose and say "Darn! I need to get a new tip!"

(I don't like bar rules because of these things BTW. I feel safeties should be allowed and openly called. More fair for everyone.)

Some players are not good at breaking and will always let their opponent break. So just try it and see what happens. Just say, "You can break!" or "I hurt my wrist and can't break. You can break!"

I agree, but saying "darn" will get your ass kicked faster than playing BCA rules 8ball. You are better off saying F**K!!!!!! or SON OF A B***H!!!!!! and try to act really mad that you missed the shot. Hold your breath until your face gets bright red, that will make you look real pissed. Then they will think you are just another typical ball banging bar-nut. In reality, you are the James Bond of pool.

 

[cueman]

Not to mention - you play any safeties in a jungle rules tourney like that and you might not get out with your life

I introduced safety play to Ellijay, Georgia in 1987 and I did over hear some talking about what might do to me outside. Eventually I just pretty much played their way and if I did play safe, I didn't do it too obviously. I moved off to Missouri for 9 years and when I came back I went back up there for a tournament and guess what. One of the guys that was talking about whipping me was playing safe on people and they were now playing ball in hand 9-ball. Guess I was just a decade or so ahead of time for them.

 

[mszelis]

So assuming I can play 'safely (but don't necessarily do), would you say I'm better off waiting until my opponent knocks off most of his balls or to just go ahead and start hitting in my balls right off the bat on a bar table?

 

[Da Poet]

I say take the break. One, I think more agressive is better in this situation, and two, giving away the break might bring attention to other shots that could be looked at as safeties, intentional or not.

By the way, choosing the cross corner bank over a straight in shot is your dirty friend in no safety pool. You can deliberately miss these and put the cue ball just about wherever you want without usually arousing suspicion. You can say you were going for the leave. Maybe a little "Oh my god! Slow down!" to help sell it.

This is why I'm not a fan of no safety pool either.

 

[DelaWho???]

So assuming I can play 'safely (but don't necessarily do), would you say I'm better off waiting until my opponent knocks off most of his balls or to just go ahead and start hitting in my balls right off the bat on a bar table?

Play the table. If you can put the run together do it and get out. If you have problem balls, don't wait until they are all that's left before you deal with them. If you can't get them freed in a couple of attempts lay up and bide your time. A trouble ball for you often is associated with a trouble ball for your opponent. Let him get down to nothing but the trouble balls and force him to break you out...

McCue Banger McCue

 

[Billy_Bob]

So assuming I can play 'safely (but don't necessarily do), would you say I'm better off waiting until my opponent knocks off most of his balls or to just go ahead and start hitting in my balls right off the bat on a bar table?

It depends on how many balls you can run in a row. And how many balls you can run in a row depends on if you can leave the cue ball where you want after each shot (position play).

If you can easily run 8 balls in a row, then the idea is to runout if you can or work toward being able to runout while keeping control of the table.

So if you can runout, go for it!

If you can't runout, then play a safety while at the same time fixing a trouble ball.

An absolutely perfect shot would be to move one of your trouble balls (which is blocked from going into a pocket by one of your opponent's balls) so it blocks the 8 ball from going into a nearby pocket or blocks one of your opponent's balls from going into a pocket. And when making this shot, leave the cue ball so your opponent has no easy shot.

I.e. Move your trouble ball so it hangs in front of a corner pocket blocking the 8 or your opponent's balls. Then you have gained an advantage. You have one less trouble ball and your opponent has one or more new trouble balls!

That trouble ball which, would go nowhere before, is now right in front of a pocket and will now be an easy shot!

Then leave blocking balls in place until last in your runout if possible. Then if you mess up on the runout, the 8 or your opponent's ball(s) are still blocked. (Causing them trouble.)

If you can't run 8 balls in a row, might want to shoot in a few. Good idea to leave 3 balls on the table if you can't runout. Then it is difficult for your opponent to leave you without a shot. Play a safety and move one of your balls closer to a pocket. Hopefully a trouble ball and you are moving it so it blocks your opponent's ball(s).

The worst thing to do is shoot in all your balls except one. This is called "One ball hell!" I love it when my opponent does this and I still have all my balls on the table. I can easily snooker them and get ball-in-hand if needed (or make them shoot a kick shot in which they can't very well control where the cue ball goes after the shot).

 

[mszelis]

It depends on how many balls you can run in a row. And how many balls you can run in a row depends on if you can leave the cue ball where you want after each shot (position play).

If you can easily run 8 balls in a row, then the idea is to runout if you can or work toward being able to runout while keeping control of the table.

So if you can runout, go for it!

If you can't runout, then play a safety while at the same time fixing a trouble ball.

An absolutely perfect shot would be to move one of your trouble balls (which is blocked from going into a pocket by one of your opponent's balls) so it blocks the 8 ball from going into a nearby pocket or blocks one of your opponent's balls from going into a pocket. And when making this shot, leave the cue ball so your opponent has no easy shot.

I.e. Move your trouble ball so it hangs in front of a corner pocket blocking the 8 or your opponent's balls. Then you have gained an advantage. You have one less trouble ball and your opponent has one or more new trouble balls!

That trouble ball which, would go nowhere before, is now right in front of a pocket and will now be an easy shot!

Then leave blocking balls in place until last in your runout if possible. Then if you mess up on the runout, the 8 or your opponent's ball(s) are still blocked. (Causing them trouble.)

If you can't run 8 balls in a row, might want to shoot in a few. Good idea to leave 3 balls on the table if you can't runout. Then it is difficult for your opponent to leave you without a shot. Play a safety and move one of your balls closer to a pocket. Hopefully a trouble ball and you are moving it so it blocks your opponent's ball(s).

The worst thing to do is shoot in all your balls except one. This is called "One ball hell!" I love it when my opponent does this and I still have all my balls on the table. I can easily snooker them and get ball-in-hand if needed (or make them shoot a kick shot in which they can't very well control where the cue ball goes after the shot).

Thank you, this is exactly the response I was looking for.

 

[biblewriter]

The Shot-safety

With the bar rules "no safety" rule, this just gives an advantage to the better players who can "mask" their safeties and make it look like an attempt to pocket a ball.

How this is done: When you have a shot, you have 6 pockets to choose from. So you can shoot that ball at any of the 6 pockets. And doing this will *also* determine where the cue ball will go after the shot.

The key in the safety is to leave the cue ball in a nasty spot.

So instead of an obvious cut shot on a ball, say bank it and use follow to leave the cue ball against the far rail. Or you could bank it and use draw to leave the cue ball on the near rail. Or call a two rail bank with follow to leave the cue ball on another rail. Just be sure you don't aim exactly right - don't make the ball. After shooting, say "Darn!" (Of course you are jumping for joy because you left the cue ball in a nasty spot.)

You have explained the SHOT-SAFETY.

Before I developed a conscience and stopped hustling suckers, I used the Shot-Safety to hide my speed from ordinary players. I don't know how a referee would rule when I freeze my opponent against a ball and fire the object ball around the table to land in front of a pocket, but drunks in bars seldom made an issue of it. Especially if you are complaining loudly about missing by a foot.

Allowing no safeties and having no penaties for fouls changes the game somewhat, but a good move is a good move and usually wins no matter what the rules say.

However, in a tournament with skilled players a lesser player could win with these rules from time to time.

You can rate the intelligence of the opposition by their reaction to Shot-Safeties. If they have any brains they should quickly figure that they are in a trap.

Every top 8-baller I have known plays these stall shots to hide their speed when they have weak opponents. Of course, these moves also beat experts in the right situations.

A great way to learn how to control the cue ball and the first object ball is by playing 3-cushion with the idea of leaving the other fellow safe EVERY TIME. This is done by leaving the opponent's cue ball at the far end of the table and your ball and the red (or yellow) at the other end. This automatically makes scoring difficult.

Old-time 3 Cushion players used to call this tactic "rolling up to the red." At the same time no soft plays are made that leave your cue ball near the opponent's cue ball. This prevents any short angle shots that top plyers score five or six points from.

If the opposition cue ball is near the red, drive one of the balls away and leave a long rail to rail shot.

Needless to say in modern 3-cushion "rolling up to the red" as a strategy doesn't have a prayer. The top players nowadays almost automatically make these shots.

Nevertheless, practicing "rolling up to the red" teaches how to do the same thing in pool where it is much more effective in stopping a foe. Indeed, it is often much easier to do on a pool table.

The Shot-safety is a powerful tool no matter what the rules are used or which the game is being played.

My article about the Shot-safety will be in the August Pool & Billiard Magazine.
biblewriter

 

[stick8]

8 ball

Last night I went to an 8-ball bar tournament over in Anderson, SC. Of course they don't play by BCA rules but instead bar rules (No safeties and whatever you make on the break, you have to take, no ball in hand). Now this brought up two interesting points. First, whether or not it was an advantage to break. Because if you pocket a solid you have to be solids, why would you want to break? I figured the whole advantage to breaking was so that you could pick your own ball group...? I actually started thinking that it might be a disadvantage to break (assuming you pocket a ball) because that would be one less ball you could shoot at and one less ball to be in your opponents way. What do you guys think?

Also, because you can't play safties, what do you think the best strategy is? In R. Givens book "The Eight Ball Bible" he explains that the best way to play bar-table 8-ball is to "Float like a butterfly and sting like a bee." You hook your opponent with deadly safties after they knock down most of their balls and then run out on them. Now my question is (in addition to what everyone thinks about the break being a disadvantage) is whether this strategy would hold true for the rules that this tournament goes by. Am I better waiting until my opponent knocks down most of his balls and then trying my luck at running out or should I just play offensively and try to hit my balls down whenever I can?

this place you played was not by any chance [THE DUGOUT] was it?? if so i have a few on it!!!!

 

[Snorks]

Just another perspective... if those are the rules, if all players are playing by them, why don't you just do it also? When I walked into my buddies pool league, and they had what I considered silly rules, oh well, thems the breaks. Just go with the flow and have fun... hmm... have fun... I think I'm going to go out tonight and have some fun

 

[mszelis]

No, it was The Twisted Spoke. I think next semester I might join a league at Break Time in Anderson.