Basic Strategy in 8 Ball: General Theory Part I
- Thread starter rkim99
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rkim99 said:
I must vehmently disagree with your method of choosing a key ball.
I used to fall into the trap of picking a key ball as you describe. It isn't a good idea to pick one "closest to the eight." Why? Because that one is rarely the best key ball. Many times the closest one requires too detailed and exacting position....one screw up and you're in one ball Hell.
The best key ball, imho, is the one that naturally takes the cueball into the 8-ball's easiest and largest position zone. And the closest one doesn't often fit that bill. One of my favorite key balls is a ball on/close to one of the end rails as that gives me the most choices coming off the rail to approach the 8-ball. That key ball might be a the other end of the table.
When I quit picking the closest key ball is the day I opened up more, better choices to get onto the 8 successfully.
I like your two '3 ball runouts' concept with the linkage ball, btw.
Jeff Livingston
I watch many players pick a ball close to the 8 and will even screw up a run out when they miss shape trying to leave that ball for getting on the 8. I look for a couple things in 8 ball, are the balls tied up and where does the 8 go. If one group of balls are all open I pick them. If both groups are open, I pick the ones more in the middle table rather than along rails or each end. Nothing sucks more than making great shape moving around middle table balls for a run out and then hit a ball in the middle or freeze on it hooking myself on the 8. The middle table balls really limit shape options for moving around table once you have most of your balls down. My last ball I like to have a natural line for shape to the 8 rather than being close to the 8. I might even leave a ball at the other end of the table if I have a natural 2 or 3 rails to 8.
Jason;
First of all, thank you for your time and consideration, and of course, your insights. Also, I agree with both you and Jeff in that the closest pocketable ball is not always the best option; sometimes the best ball to the eight is further away.
However, I believe both of you must agree that a stop shot or a variation of a stop shot, to set up for the 8 is far easier and less likely to make a mistake with, than going 1 or 2 rails, generally speaking (wow, that sentence is warped).
As you must agree that going from one end rail to the other does require a fairly high level of speed control (though it is most excellent when we do it right, yes? ;-)).
For a lower level player though, going from end to end on the most critical shot of the game is usually asking for trouble. Which is why my concept of basic strategy advocates simpler shapes that a less experienced player can reproduce more consistently.
At least, this is my opinion. do either of you disagree?
First of all, thank you for your time and consideration, and of course, your insights. Also, I agree with both you and Jeff in that the closest pocketable ball is not always the best option; sometimes the best ball to the eight is further away.
However, I believe both of you must agree that a stop shot or a variation of a stop shot, to set up for the 8 is far easier and less likely to make a mistake with, than going 1 or 2 rails, generally speaking (wow, that sentence is warped).
As you must agree that going from one end rail to the other does require a fairly high level of speed control (though it is most excellent when we do it right, yes? ;-)).
For a lower level player though, going from end to end on the most critical shot of the game is usually asking for trouble. Which is why my concept of basic strategy advocates simpler shapes that a less experienced player can reproduce more consistently.
At least, this is my opinion. do either of you disagree?
rkim99 said:
It's great when there is a natural stop shot to get on the 8, but this is not always possible. Nor is it necessarily the best shot - you may want that ball for something else.
There may well be other very easy positional shots to get on the 8 ball. I agree with Jeff that balls close to the end rail can be great for positional purposes (and I often reserve them as break balls for that reason). This is particularly the case when the c.b. is traveling naturally off the end rail towards the black along the line of the shot. When you have this, you really don't need good speed control. :smile:
Many times, I've seen very good 9-ball players struggle with the strategic and tactical nuances of playing 8-ball.
Earl Strickland, for example, is one of the best 9-ball players to ever play the game. However, in watching him play 8-ball in the IPT, he had a hard time making the adjustment to playing 8-ball. Ditto for many other 9-ball players playing in the IPT.
Playing 8-ball well is not just about shot-making and running out tables in one inning. 8-ball often requires patience and strategic planning similar to what's required in playing chess.
IMO, just because one is a good 9-ball player doesn't mean that they will be equally good at 8-ball.
Earl Strickland, for example, is one of the best 9-ball players to ever play the game. However, in watching him play 8-ball in the IPT, he had a hard time making the adjustment to playing 8-ball. Ditto for many other 9-ball players playing in the IPT.
Playing 8-ball well is not just about shot-making and running out tables in one inning. 8-ball often requires patience and strategic planning similar to what's required in playing chess.
IMO, just because one is a good 9-ball player doesn't mean that they will be equally good at 8-ball.
rkim99 said:
You know, I thought I agreed with using stop balls for the best shape, but my recent straight pool play has changed that concept for me somewhat.
Stop shot shape is great, but if the cue ball drifts off, even a little, the following balls can be really nasty. One of my current straight pool playing partners is giving me a hard time for my attempts to move the cueball too little. That is, he is wanting me to let the cueball go into a different, bigger zone with more options rather than move it perfectly so little, as my attempts at perfect shape (even stop shot shape) cost me too often.
Sense?
Jeff Livingston
Wtf???
What skill level are you?
ne14tennis said:I personally choose to only look 1 shot ahead. While I'm on a shot, I look to where I want to go with it for the next ball and that's about it. If you miss your spot now you have to re=think things. Too much thinking.
What skill level are you?
lots of good stuff here..
I'd also add...
when your opp picks his set and leaves you with a REALLY bad layout.. your not getting out this inning period.. and you only get out next inning if he makes a major mistake...
we have all been in that spot..
I'll try to play a safe that buries the 8 ball in a cluster of my balls.. and I will sacrifice getting perfectly safe at times to accomplish that goal...
that one tip can buy you A LOT of time.. and if its a bad break and you get the raw end of the deal it can save your ass...
I'd also add...
when your opp picks his set and leaves you with a REALLY bad layout.. your not getting out this inning period.. and you only get out next inning if he makes a major mistake...
we have all been in that spot..
I'll try to play a safe that buries the 8 ball in a cluster of my balls.. and I will sacrifice getting perfectly safe at times to accomplish that goal...
that one tip can buy you A LOT of time.. and if its a bad break and you get the raw end of the deal it can save your ass...
softshot said:
We sure have. And when things look really bleak, what I have done in the past is to make a big show of looking at the lay of the balls in great detail, lining up all sorts of combos etc. Then get down and smash the white into the balls alll you are trying to do is to get as many balls moving as possible without risking pocketing the 8.
When the dust settles, the chances are that you will have a much better layout - and it is surprising how often you leave a rubbish lie for your opponent.
If you did your preliminary table examination convincingly enough, everyone will think that you had it all planned out!:smile: Needless to say, if you luck a ball or two, absolutely no emotion to be shown :wink:
Siz said:
Every chef will tell you... if the soup tastes wrong... adjust the spice and STIR THE POT...
if you have no chance to win the game.... stir the pot.. "mess" up his layout..
cluster his balls....
hide the 8..
if you can't clear the table.....then make sure you get BACK to the table...
softshot said:
Quite. But perhaps what you are describing is altogether more planned and purposeful than the desperation shot I was referring to. Yours is a precision guided missile to my much more indiscriminate cluster bomb!
The point is that sometimes you can look for an opportunity to tie up one or two of your opponent's balls and/or the 8ball but if you cannot see a safety that you think will be effective, don't forget the scatter-gun approach! Just because you cannot plan in advance the paths or the resting position of each individual ball, you can still be confident that there is a high probability that the overall result will be favorable to you. :smile:
The "key ball" concept changes depending on which game. In 8-ball, some people (actually, lots of people) desribe the ball before the 8-ball as "the key ball" because it "unlocks" or solves the first problem: which set of balls to go for. I'm sure Jeff has heard this term as pertains to 8-ball and just went with it. It's not a term meant only for 14.1rkim99 said:
I think these paragraphs are important for your and anyone else's advancement. If you lock into a close ball as your key ball, you're going to pass up far easier runouts. It may be counter-intuitive to you, but it's an absolute truth. The best key ball is generally going to be the one that allows the cueball to naturally fall for the 8-ball. That might be a stop shot; that might be a running three railer around the table. The 8-ball position and the paths available are part of "the key."
If you're set on going for a stop shot as your last ball before the 8-ball, you need to make sure you understand how far off from a stop shot your cueball can move before you get yourself in trouble. In other words, a stop shot is only a good key ball idea as long as not stopping the cueball is also good. Compare that with a running path into position, where your running path with a large margin of error (when identified) can land in and through a good position zone.
In other words, it's not good general theory. Unless you want to be stuck with tough runouts.
Fred
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softshot said:
When playing an amateur, this seems to happen often. They just whack away and rearrange all the balls. This can make for a tough win. Definitely takes an extra inning or three.
I've thought about doing it. Perhaps I'll try that next time I'm in deep trouble.
Jeff Livingston
biblewriter
Registered
rkim99 said:
You are definitely on the right track by trying to figure things out for yourself.
Advice for 8-ball depends somewhat on how good the opposition is. If your opponent cannot clear the table with a push broom, strategy doesn't matter much. Let's assume that the players are evenly matched.
Correct strategy depends on the arena you are in. If you are playing heads up for money, marbles and chalk, you should be at least 60% certain you can finish a run before attempting to clear the table.
In tournament play you should be close to 90% sure before committing to a run.
In man to man play, a loss isn't the end of the game like it is apt to be in a tournament. In direct competition you can make a comeback. In a tournament you are in the audience as a spectator after blowing a game.
The main thing to remember is that a partial run almost always means instant defeat against a good player. Clearing a few of your balls often leaves the opponent with a very easy out after you miss.
Another thing, against better players losing a game often means losing four or five games before you get another decent shot.
When a run is uncertain, you must play safe and maneuver the balls into an advantageous position. That's a lesson for another time.
for me
I approach 8 ball like this.....
1. where are my problems?
2. is there a way to solve these problems and still run out?
3. is there a way to solve a problem and not leave you a shot?
4 is there a tricky shot that can solve it all?
5. can I make the tricky shot and still get safe?
if I can't come up with a yes...to any of those questions..I'm probably going to lose....
P.S. biblewriter...... you your book is the nuts... those nurse shots are gold.
I approach 8 ball like this.....
1. where are my problems?
2. is there a way to solve these problems and still run out?
3. is there a way to solve a problem and not leave you a shot?
4 is there a tricky shot that can solve it all?
5. can I make the tricky shot and still get safe?
if I can't come up with a yes...to any of those questions..I'm probably going to lose....
P.S. biblewriter...... you your book is the nuts... those nurse shots are gold.
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Siz said:While I am a fan of backwards planning in theory, in practice I find the real difficulty with it is when there are problem balls (which with my break is more often than not, especially on a bar box). In these situations, you really need to be giving priority to how you are going to deal with these problems - and for a number of reasons, I like to do this as early on as I can.
I agree. This is the first thing I look for. If I have choice of balls I'll be looking to see which one has the least easily solved problem ball.
I'll look to solve this problem ball as early as possible and try to find a way that may bring me second options. e.g If you miss the kiss coming in from X direction you still might get a shot at the bank and you'll still have a shot at the 6 as option B.
So after all that, if I've decided the runout is a fair chance, I take a look at the backward planning.
Colin
Colin