Basic Stroke Question

skipbales

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Bob's test (quoted below) shows that little speed can be added with the wrist. I think the wrist is more useful for finesse than for power.

pj
chgo

This is very close to what I am looking for. What should I work on to develop the control. Should I lock my wrist and use my forearm to take the hinge out of it. Or will I have better feel if I use my hands for these adjustments.
 

skipbales

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
you need a mother speed
what i mean is when you shoot up and down the table what is your natural diamond speed?
from that you can determine you distance based on angle shot with stun english
after that you can add or subtract distance by high and low
i am not an instructor
jmho
icbw
pm me if you wish

Scott gave me a very good reference of 1-9 with a half table lag being the 1. I have trouble with shots that are even less than that. When real finesse is needed I don't know exactly how to apply it. There isn't really much "stroke" to it. It is more of a tap or push.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks Fran. If you have a chance, please see the comments I made to Bob Jewett. I must have given the impression I was looking for power but didn't mean to. I am looking for control of speed and distance. What muscle group should I focus on to develop "feel". It seems like it would be the wrist unhinge but perhaps I should keep that very still and consistent and use the forearm or even bicep muscles as the control.

I know I am not the only one to struggle with this. Even the pros have trouble with it. If not, every lag for break would be a tie and they would all end up back against the rail. It is crazy to see the best players in the world lag and end up a foot from the rail. Speed control is HARD.

It's starting to sound to me like you're not even sure what you are trying to ask. You mentioned CJ getting power from his wrist. How does a player get power from his wrist without flicking it?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I think the wrist is more useful for finesse than for power.

This is very close to what I am looking for. What should I work on to develop the control. Should I lock my wrist and use my forearm to take the hinge out of it. Or will I have better feel if I use my hands for these adjustments.
I think a little wrist movement might be better for speed finesse, but a locked wrist might be better for tip/ball accuracy. You have to find which works for you.

where do you feel "feel" for speed
I feel it in the forearm and wrist, I think. Kind of a hard thing to pin down...

pj
chgo
 

skipbales

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
It's starting to sound to me like you're not even sure what you are trying to ask. You mentioned CJ getting power from his wrist. How does a player get power from his wrist without flicking it?

I didn't have a problem with the term flick. Others questioned the concept seemed to have a problem with it. I just identified the hinging and unhinging as a part of the swing that clearly can add power.

Power was not my focus. It was a response.
 

skipbales

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think a little wrist movement might be better for speed finesse, but a locked wrist might be better for tip/ball accuracy. You have to find which works for you.


I feel it in the forearm and wrist, I think. Kind of a hard thing to pin down...

pj
chgo

I may be too "handsy" of the soft stuff. I am not sure my arm moves at all on a 1-2" take back. That is the root of my question. I just shot a bunch of little shots like a tiny draw off a rail to come back 3 inches. I am practicing shooting 5 balls in rotation starting with ball in hand. I set up what should be simple little tap shots then totally screw them up. My tap is simply not reliable. I would be better off with a half table shot.
 

skipbales

AzB Gold Member
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It's starting to sound to me like you're not even sure what you are trying to ask. You mentioned CJ getting power from his wrist. How does a player get power from his wrist without flicking it?

I want to be clear. I appreciate your input and would not make a disparaging comment about anything you said.

I think an unintentional Flick would likely describe the wrist action for the type of shots I am talking about.

The power stroke CJ does is like the delayed hit in golf. In any stick and ball game "cocking" or "hinging" the wrist adds club head or stick speed at the bottom of the arc and it isn't a conscious motion or snap. It is simply angling the wrist behind the arm so momentum of the stick forces the wrist to straighten out as it passes by. This increases the speed of the stick at the bottom of the arc as the wrist catches up with the arm and adds some power. There is always a little bit of that in every shot, I was just wondering if I should try to take it out and shoot the really soft ones with a locked wrist and let the arm provide the movement forward. In putting in golf they teach a stiff wrist with no release.

I did a Google search on the subject and a post from CJ to this forum came up. https://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=294085. Again, this is kind of off the subject I was worried about. I just didn't want to ACCIDENTALLY be varying my power with too much wrist action on SOFT shots.
 
Last edited:

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I just didn't want to ACCIDENTALLY be varying my power with too much wrist action on SOFT shots.
[opinion]

The reliability of either motion (arm vs. wrist) will depend on how much you practice it, but I think precise control of slow speeds and short strokes must be more difficult using a longer lever (the forearm) powered by larger muscles. The hand/wrist is built for finer movement.

[/opinion]

pj
chgo
 

skipbales

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
[opinion]

The reliability of either motion (arm vs. wrist) will depend on how much you practice it, but I think precise control of slow speeds and short strokes must be more difficult using a longer lever (the forearm) powered by larger muscles. The hand/wrist is built for finer movement.

[/opinion]

pj
chgo

That makes sense to me. And I suppose everyone is correct, if I just set them up and shoot them enough I will improve and figure out for myself how it feels. I do like the soft hands approach over the stiff wrist. I might just be tensing up and kind of squeezing the stick.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
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skip
i am not an instructor but i will explain what has worked for me
before i do i think if you could diagram a shot you are talking about it might get you replies more specific to what you want to know...jmho
i play onepocket as my favorite game
so there are lots of times i need a "finesse" shot
when i want to take an intentional and just "tap" a ball
i only use my wrist...NO FORE ARM
if i want to lag a short distance
i reduce my back stroke and stroke softly
NO WRIST ( except for the small amount that naturally moves as your hand opens and closes as you move the cue back and forward)
there is a video of charlie "hilbilly " bryant
either on youtube or his website (sorry i didnt provide the link..:embarrassed2:)
where he demonstrates different back stroke lengths for different distances
like in golf
a chip to the green is a shorter swing than a drive
i have had several lessons with scott
i still recommend him for noobies
but on a later lesson
specifically to address a different problem of mine
he did not like that i changed my back stroke for different soft speeds
even though i was able to hit the desired distance
he felt you should always come back the same and adjust your arm speed
any way
adding wrist to arm speed adds another variable when it sounds like you want to hit a delicate shot
Keep It Simple
you are not stupid so i wont include that..:smile:
so my 30 cents worth is use ONLY your wrist
or ONLY your forearm
jmho
icbw
again this works for me
i am not an instructor
fwiw
i like how you think and trying to improve
if you are ever in vero beach Florida
pm me so we can play some and have dinner...:thumbup:
 
Last edited:

skipbales

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
skip
i am not an instructor but i will explain what has worked for me
before i do i think if you could diagram a shot you are talking about it might get you replies more specific to what you want to know...jmho
i play onepocket as my favorite game
so there are lots of times i need a "finesse" shot
when i want to take an intentional and just "tap" a ball
i only use my wrist...NO FORE ARM
if i want to lag a short distance
i reduce my back stroke and stroke softly
NO WRIST ( except for the small amount that naturally moves as your hand opens and closes as you move the cue back and forward)
there is a video of charlie "hilbilly " bryant
either on youtube or his website (sorry i didnt provide the link..:embarrassed2:)
where he demonstrates different back stroke lengths for different distances
like in golf
a chip to the green is a shorter swing than a drive
i have had several lessons with scott
i still recommend him for noobies
but on a later lesson
specifically to address a different problem of mine
he did not like that i changed my back stroke for different soft speeds
even though i was able to hit the desired distance
he felt you should always come back the same and adjust your arm speed
any way
adding wrist to arm speed adds another variable when it sounds like you want to hit a delicate shot
Keep It Simple
you are not stupid so i wont include that..:smile:
so my 30 cents worth is use ONLY your wrist
or ONLY your forearm
jmho
icbw
again this works for me
i am not an instructor
fwiw
i like how you think and trying to improve
if you are ever in vero beach Florida
pm me so we can play some and have dinner...:thumbup:

Wow. Thank you for the understanding and kindness in your post. Email and posting is always so cold but your genuineness shows through. I LIKE the advice. On the softest (like a putt in golf) there is such a tiny movement hand and wrist make the most sense. But on slightly longer shots (like a chip in golf), eliminate the wrist and adjust the take back and use the forearm. That makes sense to me.

Of course practicing this type shot is the key but I was looking for a place to start and all the help from this forum has helped me get a benchmark.

I am not likely to make it to FL but be sure if I ever am I will look you up. The same is true should you ever find yourself anywhere near Arizona.
Skip
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
Finesse was always the focus of my question. I don't know where all the discussion on power came in.



My question is more simple then all the answers. It is simply "where do you feel "feel" for speed. Do you feel the sensation in your fingers, hands, wrist, or forearms. The answers seem to be don't think of that, just practice. The answers are about what types of drills to practice, not about where I should feel the sensations.



Since when does one feel time or timing or rhythm in a particular muscle?

You have a range of motion with a beginning and end. The time it takes to complete the range of motion is the motions speed/velocity.

If you need physical representation of time to assist your speed control I suggest a metronome.

But there’s no feeling in muscles as per speed......

How does a runner know he’s running 60 second laps?

A reference and practicing so ones internal clock affixes the tempo of the muscles movements to attain the desired speed/time.

Set range + stroke tempo practice = timing /speed development.

Use scales wit numbers not words like soft med hard. The more set numbers the more accurate the scale .



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skipbales

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Since when does one feel time or timing or rhythm in a particular muscle?

You have a range of motion with a beginning and end. The time it takes to complete the range of motion is the motions speed/velocity.

If you need physical representation of time to assist your speed control I suggest a metronome.

But there’s no feeling in muscles as per speed......

How does a runner know he’s running 60 second laps?

A reference and practicing so ones internal clock affixes the tempo of the muscles movements to attain the desired speed/time.

Set range + stroke tempo practice = timing /speed development.

Use scales wit numbers not words like soft med hard. The more set numbers the more accurate the scale .



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
You may be right but I am pretty sure when a basketball player shoots a free throw he gauges the feel with his hands and wrists. Not likely he feels much in his toes.
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
You may be right but I am pretty sure when a basketball player shoots a free throw he gauges the feel with his hands and wrists. Not likely he feels much in his toes.



No sir it should be the subconscious.....and that shooting motion is generally speaking at all times the same motion fully completed to the shooting arms extension....smooth acceleration to the release. 10’ 20’30’ whatever same motion.

Speed and power in any of this is all rote memorization and building of familiarity through training. One can’t consciously focus on the effort and timing and expect to accomplish it successfully. That’s why we train by breaking down moves into components etc.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

skipbales

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
No sir it should be the subconscious.....and that shooting motion is generally speaking at all times the same motion fully completed to the shooting arms extension....smooth acceleration to the release. 10’ 20’30’ whatever same motion.

Speed and power in any of this is all rote memorization and building of familiarity through training. One can’t consciously focus on the effort and timing and expect to accomplish it successfully. That’s why we train by breaking down moves into components etc.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I was just razzing you a little. I get your point, it is very common thought here. Basically let the sub concious figure it out, set up shots and let everything work together. Good thoughts but I gained some other insights that are working for me to make that happen. see next post.
 

skipbales

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
skip
i am not an instructor but i will explain what has worked for me
before i do i think if you could diagram a shot you are talking about it might get you replies more specific to what you want to know...jmho
i play onepocket as my favorite game
so there are lots of times i need a "finesse" shot
when i want to take an intentional and just "tap" a ball
i only use my wrist...NO FORE ARM
if i want to lag a short distance
i reduce my back stroke and stroke softly
NO WRIST ( except for the small amount that naturally moves as your hand opens and closes as you move the cue back and forward)
there is a video of charlie "hilbilly " bryant
either on youtube or his website (sorry i didnt provide the link..:embarrassed2:)
where he demonstrates different back stroke lengths for different distances
like in golf
a chip to the green is a shorter swing than a drive
i have had several lessons with scott
i still recommend him for noobies
but on a later lesson
specifically to address a different problem of mine
he did not like that i changed my back stroke for different soft speeds
even though i was able to hit the desired distance
he felt you should always come back the same and adjust your arm speed
any way
adding wrist to arm speed adds another variable when it sounds like you want to hit a delicate shot
Keep It Simple
you are not stupid so i wont include that..:smile:
so my 30 cents worth is use ONLY your wrist
or ONLY your forearm
jmho
icbw
again this works for me
i am not an instructor
fwiw
i like how you think and trying to improve
if you are ever in vero beach Florida
pm me so we can play some and have dinner...:thumbup:

You nailed it for me. working on some shots this morning I gained some ground on all this. This is what I discovered.

1. For tiny soft shots like touch safeties where you barely roll the ball, maybe a few inches and nick or bump a ball. No forearm movement. Hands only, works best for me. The minute I felt my forearm tighten I hit too hard.
2. All other speeds up to very hard, no hand or wrist was more consistent. I hit a 2 diamond force follow off the rail back to a 3" circle. If I involved my hands or wrist I was all over the place. Mostly I came up way short. By taking a loose grip and using only my forearm I got very consistent. When force was involved the hands were more of a problem. This is more the shots everyone teaches and focus on. They represent a majority of all shots so the "just practice" advice is good here.
3. For hard shots, like the break, it takes co-ordination of all of it for the power.
4. What surprised me was the very narrow range where hands only worked best. It only helped when it was a tap type shot. I had one at league last night. I tried to roll my opponent's ball one inch into a 2 ball cluster of mine and let him have Ball in Hand. I had insurance balls and no way he could do anything with his ball. I hit it a TINY bit too hard. One of my balls moved out of the way and cleared a path for him and I lost the game. This is the only type shot where the feather soft hands (or even fingers) would have been a better choice. I only had to roll the cue ball 1 foot then barely touch his ball and I just could not hit it that soft. There is just too much power in any type of actual stroking motion for these delicate shots to work for me.
 
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greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
You nailed it for me. working on some shots this morning I gained some ground on all this. This is what I discovered.

1. For tiny soft shots like touch safeties where you barely roll the ball, maybe a few inches and nick or bump a ball. No forearm movement. Hands only, works best for me. The minute I felt my forearm tighten I hit too hard.
2. All other speeds up to very hard, no hand or wrist was more consistent. I hit a 2 diamond force follow off the rail back to a 3" circle. If I involved my hands or wrist I was all over the place. Mostly I came up way short. By taking a loose grip and using only my forearm I got very consistent. When force was involved the hands were more of a problem. This is more the shots everyone teaches and focus on. They represent a majority of all shots so the "just practice" advice is good here.
3. For hard shots, like the break, it takes co-ordination of all of it for the power.
4. What surprised me was the very narrow range where hands only worked best. It only helped when it was a tap type shot. I had one at league last night. I tried to roll my opponent's ball one inch into a 2 ball cluster of mine and let him have Ball in Hand. I had insurance balls and no way he could do anything with his ball. I hit it a TINY bit too hard. One of my balls moved out of the way and cleared a path for him and I lost the game. This is the only type shot where the feather soft hands (or even fingers) would have been a better choice. I only had to roll the cue ball 1 foot then barely touch his ball and I just could not hit it that soft. There is just too much power in any type of actual stroking motion for these delicate shots to work for me.



Note....of all noted executions none could be considered the same across the board.

Only person I ever heard of change their swing all the time and champ on is tiger woods fwiw




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greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
Note....of all noted executions none could be considered the same across the board.

Only person I ever heard of change their swing all the time (here I’m pointing at short term general shot to shot) and champ on is tiger woods fwiw




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
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