BCA 8 Ball rules question

P

Poolfiend

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
First, yes I read the rules prior to starting this thread.

Can you remove the spot in the middle of a game if it is peeling up and directly in your line of shot?

I asked the TD first and he said go ahead - so I did. Other player threw a little fit after I won the match. Bar tourneys are always fun. ;)
 
Good Question

Technically, when you start a match you accept the conditions of the equipment at that time.

I have seen a table become so out of level that both players/teams requested a different table in mid match. Because a table was open and both teams agreed, the match was concluded on a table other than what it began on.

If the spot was peeling up, why did you wait until that shot to bring it to someones attention? I'm sure it didn't start to curl up as you were aiming that shot.

What should have happened is: The match halted while the spot was removed and replaced/repaired.

If your opponent had no argument about the spot being removed, and the TD removed it then he had no right to complain after the match.

On a side note, the TD should have been the one to remove it
 
ne14tennis said:
Technically, when you start a match you accept the conditions of the equipment at that time.

I have seen a table become so out of level that both players/teams requested a different table in mid match. Because a table was open and both teams agreed, the match was concluded on a table other than what it began on.

If the spot was peeling up, why did you wait until that shot to bring it to someones attention? I'm sure it didn't start to curl up as you were aiming that shot.

What should have happened is: The match halted while the spot was removed and replaced/repaired.

If your opponent had no argument about the spot being removed, and the TD removed it then he had no right to complain after the match.

On a side note, the TD should have been the one to remove it
Click to expand...

Good answer. This is a TD's call. You bring him to the table and show him/her the spot. He can then decide the best way to handle it.

I've had this come up several times. Usually I would remove a bad spot immediately, and replace it asap. Even with the spot removed it isn't hard to see where to rack the balls.

If it were up to me the only thing you would see at the foot spot would be a large black dot on the table (or a small X), courtesy of a black sharpie.
 
Thanks for the response. I honestly didn't notice the spot peeling up until I lined up the shot, otherwise I probably would have removed it before racking the balls.
 
Seriously, that has to be the craziest complaint ever. Your opponent got upset because you removed the spot? OMG!!!

When I compete, I try to be fair with my opponents. I mean, I want to win but I want to win on my merits or on his errors - not because of something random. If a spot is visibly risen off the cloth and my opponent just peeled it and threw it away, I wouldn't think anything of it. If it were me shooting, I'd probably look at him and say, "Hey, I'm gonna get rid of this spot, okay?" I'd say it with a tone that suggested only a nit would say no.

IMO, it was horrible for him to even bring it up.
 
Thanks Jude. He made quite a production about it, complaining to the TD after and anyone else that would listen. He got in my face a little. I said, "hey, I asked the TD, he said go ahead - end of issue." I also asked him if he was the kind of guy that wants to win based on an obstruction on the table. I think next week I will be especially friendly to him and ask him if he wants the 8 ball for some cheap sets. Thanks again.
 
Poolfiend said:
Thanks Jude. He made quite a production about it, complaining to the TD after and anyone else that would listen. He got in my face a little. I said, "hey, I asked the TD, he said go ahead - end of issue." I also asked him if he was the kind of guy that wants to win based on an obstruction on the table. I think next week I will be especially friendly to him and ask him if he wants the 8 ball for some cheap sets. Thanks again.
Click to expand...


Are you kidding? I would never play someone like this by my own volition. I wouldn't play him for fun or for money. Gambling is business. You want your business to go without incident. Win and get paid. Lose and pay up. It's much much better when everything is civilized.
 
Good point. It would probably be a waste of my breath anyway. I doubt he would bet enough to make it worth the effort and annoyance.
 
Poolfiend said:
Good point. It would probably be a waste of my breath anyway. I doubt he would bet enough to make it worth the effort and annoyance.
Click to expand...


I know I'm taking a big tangent here but I just needed to say this. When I beat a guy out of any money, I always take care of the time so long as I at least break even on that deal. I consider it a fair and polite gesture. I do this for a lot of reasons but the biggest reason is because I want someone to be as happy as can be when they give me their money. I know that sounds funny but think about it for a moment and it makes great sense. Take a guy's money, do you really want him to be angry with you? It's much much better when he's thinking, "Wow, that guy's not so bad. I'll gamble with him anytime" instead of, "Wow, I hate him!"

There's no point in starting a session with a guy you already have a problem with.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
I know I'm taking a big tangent here but I just needed to say this. When I beat a guy out of any money, I always take care of the time so long as I at least break even on that deal. I consider it a fair and polite gesture. I do this for a lot of reasons but the biggest reason is because I want someone to be as happy as can be when they give me their money. I know that sounds funny but think about it for a moment and it makes great sense. Take a guy's money, do you really want him to be angry with you? It's much much better when he's thinking, "Wow, that guy's not so bad. I'll gamble with him anytime" instead of, "Wow, I hate him!"

There's no point in starting a session with a guy you already have a problem with.
Click to expand...


Jude, you are a guy who will do well in the pool world. You MUST keep your customers happy or they will not come back.

I used to let guys cheat me out of games on the wire, steal balls from me in One Pocket and even foul with impunity. All this to make them keep playing and PAYING! It worked pretty good for nearly ten years. I had many repeat customers, who helped me buy my first poolroom. :wink:
 
Technically, the spot should have been replaced in between games.

When the match starts, both players accept the table as is. Nothing can be changed during the match to give one player (his turn at the table) an unfair advantage over his opponent. IMO this was the case. The shooter thought the spot would affect his shot.

Players can ask for cue balls to be cleaned during play, but that is still a request. The ref or TD can determine if it is warranted or not.

I know most would think that the spot is trivial in this respect, but, it would be just as bad if the shooter demanded that the Measle cue ball be replaced with a red circle cue ball because he didn't like the way the measle played.

The rules are there to protect each player's right to Fair playing conditions.
 
jay helfert said:
Good answer. This is a TD's call. You bring him to the table and show him/her the spot. He can then decide the best way to handle it.

I've had this come up several times. Usually I would remove a bad spot immediately, and replace it asap. Even with the spot removed it isn't hard to see where to rack the balls.

If it were up to me the only thing you would see at the foot spot would be a large black dot on the table (or a small X), courtesy of a black sharpie.
Click to expand...
Jay , I know youve been around the game a long time and by no means do I mean do I mean to start an argument. I agree with you about the spot being in the way and balls never rolling true over a spot. But have you ever seen atable without the spot. It wears about a million times faster than the rest of the table. Ive seen tables look brand new and the place where the spot should be have a hole in it.
 
chris_williams said:
Jay , I know youve been around the game a long time and by no means do I mean do I mean to start an argument. I agree with you about the spot being in the way and balls never rolling true over a spot. But have you ever seen atable without the spot. It wears about a million times faster than the rest of the table. Ive seen tables look brand new and the place where the spot should be have a hole in it.
Click to expand...


Well, this is the room's issue, not the player's. A good room checks for missing spots on a regular basis. A few sets without a spot won't cause a lot of damage.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
Technically, the spot should have been replaced in between games.

When the match starts, both players accept the table as is. Nothing can be changed during the match to give one player (his turn at the table) an unfair advantage over his opponent. IMO this was the case. The shooter thought the spot would affect his shot.

Players can ask for cue balls to be cleaned during play, but that is still a request. The ref or TD can determine if it is warranted or not.

I know most would think that the spot is trivial in this respect, but, it would be just as bad if the shooter demanded that the Measle cue ball be replaced with a red circle cue ball because he didn't like the way the measle played.

The rules are there to protect each player's right to Fair playing conditions.
Click to expand...

What about picking lint or hair off the table? Do you need the TD's permission for that too? Obviously the rule isn't absolute. Changing cue balls and removing spots are different.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
I know I'm taking a big tangent here but I just needed to say this. When I beat a guy out of any money, I always take care of the time so long as I at least break even on that deal. I consider it a fair and polite gesture. I do this for a lot of reasons but the biggest reason is because I want someone to be as happy as can be when they give me their money. I know that sounds funny but think about it for a moment and it makes great sense. Take a guy's money, do you really want him to be angry with you? It's much much better when he's thinking, "Wow, that guy's not so bad. I'll gamble with him anytime" instead of, "Wow, I hate him!"

There's no point in starting a session with a guy you already have a problem with.
Click to expand...

I also get the time everytime I win. I usually gamble with guys I am at least a little familiar with and will probably see again. You're right, nothing good can come of winning a few bucks off him. It would just heat things up more and I certainly don't want to make any enemies. There is a little bad blood between us anyway. A detail I left out previously. I played him in the same tourney once before and he broke down his cue and put it away in the middle of my run. I politely let him know after the game that in most tourneys that was considered a loss of game. I don't think he appreciated the tip.
 
Watch The HSV

chris_williams said:
Jay , I know youve been around the game a long time and by no means do I mean do I mean to start an argument. I agree with you about the spot being in the way and balls never rolling true over a spot. But have you ever seen atable without the spot. It wears about a million times faster than the rest of the table. Ive seen tables look brand new and the place where the spot should be have a hole in it.
Click to expand...

Besides marking where the apex ball should go, the spot does protect the cloth.

Most of the popular games begin with a break shot aimed at the apex or 1st ball in the rack. a lot of the hard breakers actually hit so hard that the cue ball leaves the felt and hits the rack with a downward force.

I know this would be extreme , but try jump shooting a ball in the same spot 15-20 times. Look at the felt. Imagine thousands and thousands of shots with a break shot velocity all hitting the same ball in the same spot.
 
A different Opinion

Tom In Cincy said:
Technically, the spot should have been replaced in between games.

When the match starts, both players accept the table as is. Nothing can be changed during the match to give one player (his turn at the table) an unfair advantage over his opponent. IMO this was the case. The shooter thought the spot would affect his shot.

Players can ask for cue balls to be cleaned during play, but that is still a request. The ref or TD can determine if it is warranted or not.

I know most would think that the spot is trivial in this respect, but, it would be just as bad if the shooter demanded that the Measle cue ball be replaced with a red circle cue ball because he didn't like the way the measle played.

The rules are there to protect each player's right to Fair playing conditions.
Click to expand...

I'm going to take the players word that it happened during that game. If a cushion came loose or a pocket obstructed a ball being pocketed, I'm not going to tell them to wait until the game is over.

An equipment malfunction should be remedied as soon as it is discovered.

The BCAPL rule states this:

1.2 Acceptance of Equipment
1. Once your match begins, you accept the equipment as standard and legal. After a match has begun, only a referee or event official may declare the equipment to be defective or unsuitable for play. If equipment is declared unsuitable for play, all games previously played on that equipment will be counted. (AR)
2. It is a foul if you attempt to modify equipment without the permission of a referee or event official. The foul occurs immediately upon the attempt, regardless of whether or not a stroke or shot is attempted. (AR)
Click to expand...
 
Seems like it shouldn't be any more of a complaint than if a large piece of chalk were removed from the table. Removing the impediment is the reasonable and fair thing to do. Case closed.
 
Jude,

Unfortunately, in the USA, "Cue Ball Fouls only".
In a better competition arena, there would be 'All ball fouls' and a referee to enforce the rules.

Please explain why you think improving playing conditions (picking up lint off the table surface) on your turn at the table is different?



Jude Rosenstock said:
What about picking lint or hair off the table? Do you need the TD's permission for that too? Obviously the rule isn't absolute. Changing cue balls and removing spots are different.
Click to expand...
 
Official BCAPL response...

...is pending. However, initial indications from the BCAPL are that the spot will be changed immediately if properly requested, and that a player changing or removing the spot without permission is a foul per BCAPL Rule 1.2.2.

More detailed response and reasoning to follow...

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Senior Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net
:smile:


* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* There is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules". The BCA does not edit nor is responsible for the content of the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top