BCA Nationals Ref - Borrow a jump cue?

[jay helfert]

so, how much do you get?

First of all, that's none of your business! When you put on a major pool tournament in a casino, see what kind of deal you can get. Then you won't have to ask Mark. I have done many events in casinos and was one of the first to negotiate for a room rebate. It is usually about 10%, and based on the total number of room nights. If you don't book enough rooms, you can end up with nothing!

 

[DRW]

Mark's cut

Well, you have to remember Mark Griffen is getting a 25% kick back from the Riv. on every room sold to BCAPL players.

How did you come about this knowledge? Should haved looked further. Mark answered already.

 

[jamesroberts]

If they are trained this way, then I don't agree. It is not a referee's job to tell a player how to execute the shot. I have been asked a million times if I will call a foul on a certain shot. My response is, "You shoot it, I'll call it!"

i dont understand that? I think I asked you a question like that last year at the 10 ball event in vegas. If someone asks you a question you should be able to give them options. Like in golf the ref tells you the options and explains whats what, its up to the individual to make the best choice for them

Or like in football when there is a penalty on the opposing team, the ref gives the coach there options and they can accept the penalty or decline it

 

[akaTrigger]

I saw a pro in the ten ball event have to borrow a jump cue. I don't recall it being an issue there, but then again, then refs weren't involved in the discussion when it was borrowed.

 

[jay helfert]

i dont understand that? I think I asked you a question like that last year at the 10 ball event in vegas. If someone asks you a question you should be able to give them options. Like in golf the ref tells you the options and explains whats what, its up to the individual to make the best choice for them

Or like in football when there is a penalty on the opposing team, the ref gives the coach there options and they can accept the penalty or decline it

All right then, here's a couple of options. If you make a good hit, fine. If you make a bad hit, it's a foul.

There are many variables that can come up on a golf course due to terrain and other conditions that are not applicable to pool. When there is a judgement call required I have no problem explaining that to both players. Making a good hit is not a judgement call. Either you do or you don't.

James, here's the problem with what you're asking. If a player has to play a tricky shot and begins to ask me questions about how he can or cannot hit it, that can open up a prolonged discussion on how to execute the shot so that it isn't a foul. At this point if I continue to answer his questions, I am becoming his coach and no longer a referee. One question can lead to two and then three, and pretty soon we enter into a debate on what is a legal hit and what isn't. Over the years I have found it is much better not to enter into such a dialogue with a player. It is his responsibility to know how to shoot the shot and my job to call it. More often then not they are just quizzing me anyway to see what I will say, and I don't like quizzes.

I'm sure there are many referees that have no problem engaging in discussions like this with players. I'm just not one of them.

 

[renard]

i was there and saw that happen,i always thought the rule was you had to use what is in your bag,it is a legal cue made by a guy i forget but i think name is chilton

chilton does make a jump cue called the flying eagle

http://www.chiltoncue.com/html/docs/flying_eagle.htm

 

[TheNewSharkster]

I don't think you should be able to borrow equipment in a large tournament like this unless your opponent says he doesn't mind.

 

[jamesroberts]

All right then, here's a couple of options. If you make a good hit, fine. If you make a bad hit, it's a foul.

There are many variables that can come up on a golf course due to terrain and other conditions that are not applicable to pool. When there is a judgement call required I have no problem explaining that to both players. Making a good hit is not a judgement call. Either you do or you don't.

James, here's the problem with what you're asking. If a player has to play a tricky shot and begins to ask me questions about how he can or cannot hit it, that can open up a prolonged discussion on how to execute the shot so that it isn't a foul. At this point if I continue to answer his questions, I am becoming his coach and no longer a referee. One question can lead to two and then three, and pretty soon we enter into a debate on what is a legal hit and what isn't. Over the years I have found it is much better not to enter into such a dialogue with a player. It is his responsibility to know how to shoot the shot and my job to call it. More often then not they are just quizzing me anyway to see what I will say, and I don't like quizzes.

I'm sure there are many referees that have no problem engaging in discussions like this with players. I'm just not one of them.

i have a ton of respect for you ! was just curious why and now i know

 

[heit8]

IMO a jump cue is a jump cue some better than others and to not know how this home made thing is gonna jump.... and he makes it, so what do you think would have happened if he had his? i think he made the shot so he won, if he missed you had the game, on a side note (including me) we tend to have excuses when we loose. i think its ok that he was lent one but i dont think the ref should have adivsed him.
just my .02

 

[mullyman]

Had you won the match we wouldn't be hearing anything about this. I agree that people should bring their equipment with them to the table. But, it wouldn't bother me if my opponent asked to borrow a jump cue. Matter of fact, if I had a jump cue I'd loan it to him myself.
MULLY

 

[mullyman]

All right then, here's a couple of options. If you make a good hit, fine. If you make a bad hit, it's a foul.

There are many variables that can come up on a golf course due to terrain and other conditions that are not applicable to pool. When there is a judgement call required I have no problem explaining that to both players. Making a good hit is not a judgement call. Either you do or you don't.

James, here's the problem with what you're asking. If a player has to play a tricky shot and begins to ask me questions about how he can or cannot hit it, that can open up a prolonged discussion on how to execute the shot so that it isn't a foul. At this point if I continue to answer his questions, I am becoming his coach and no longer a referee. One question can lead to two and then three, and pretty soon we enter into a debate on what is a legal hit and what isn't. Over the years I have found it is much better not to enter into such a dialogue with a player. It is his responsibility to know how to shoot the shot and my job to call it. More often then not they are just quizzing me anyway to see what I will say, and I don't like quizzes.

I'm sure there are many referees that have no problem engaging in discussions like this with players. I'm just not one of them.

I agree 100% on this one. The only questions a ref should be answering are if it's a good hit or not, and anything pertaining to rules. No advice should be given.
MULLY

 

[gromulan]

Here are some interesting comparison rules from around the world of sport...

In tennis a player can bring as many rackets to a match as he or she likes. Most pros bring as many as 15 or 20. They can change rackets at any time and, if they break a string, they can have the racket sent out to be re-strung while the match is taking place (though they can't delay play) and then bring it back into play when it's repaired.

In golf a player is only allowed 14 clubs. If a club becomes altered or damaged during play in any way then it cannot be used, but it can be repaired or replaced and returned to play when it is. You might remember Tiger breaking his 4 iron at the Masters a few years ago when he hit from the trees. It would have been perfectly legal to have that club sent to the Nike van by a runner, reshafted, and then brought back into play on a later hole, or to replace it with a backup club, if Tiger had brought one with him (he hadn't).


Bear in mind though that tennis rackets and golf clubs are machine made, unlike pool cues. 20 tennis rackets of the same make, model and string will all hit pretty much the same. 20 pool cues of the same make, model, and tip brand may all hit completely differently.


In snooker, even in the televised matches, if a player's tip comes off or is damaged, they are allowed a 15 minute timeout to change it. Interestingly enough though, they don't provide chalk at televised snooker matches - you have to bring your own. If you show up without some you can be docked a game for not being 'ready to play' at your scheduled match time.

Also interesting in snooker is this: In snooker, if a referee cannot tell if a close hit was good or a foul, then it is a FOUL! There is none of this 'tie goes to the shooter' as we see in pool. That means that if you're playing any kind of a close hit you'd better make darn sure you play it in a way that there isn't any doubt! For my money this is far better than in pool where once in a while a guy will just hit a close hit really hard and hope that the ref couldn't tell what happened.

Also worth noting is that in snooker the referee is permitted to only answer certain questions. They are:
"What color is this?" for players who may be color blind,
"Is this ball in the "D"?', for situations where a player is trying to place the cue ball in the 'D' with ball-in-hand
"What is the current highest break?" For tournaments where there is a high break prize.

 

[tatcat2000]

Quick official BCAPL response

Gotta run to work in a few, but here are the nuts and bolts...

First, this is only a statement of the rules in force at the time of OP's situation. It is not in any way a judgment on the referee's actions. It cannot be, since I was not there to make the call, nor am I able to personally interview all of the parties involved. See BCAPL Applied Ruling 9.2, General Discussion, paragraphs 3-5.

Despite anyone's personal beliefs or desires, the BCAPL rules are clear on a few things:

From BCAPL Applied Ruling 1.4, Situation 1:

Situation: After a match begins, a player wishes to borrow or purchase a cue or other equipment for use in their match.

Ruling: A match may not be delayed to borrow or buy equipment. A player may borrow equipment from someone in the immediate vicinity of the table, but may purchase equipment only during an authorized time out.

The terms "delayed" and "immediate vicinity of the table" are generally open to the judgment of the referee, but certainly allow the adjoining tables and a delay of a short, reasonable period. (My personal judgment in most cases would be not more than two minutes, but any number of factors could shorten or lengthen it somewhat. Again, however, my personal judgment is not necessarily relevant here.)

From BCAPL Rule 9.2, Answering Players' Questions

1. A referee must answer all players' questions regarding the BCAPL Rules within the following guidelines:

a. A referee must provide only factual information. Examples include, but are not limited to:

(1) how many games are needed to win the match;
(2) what the penalty is for a specific rules infraction;
(3) what rule would apply if a specific shot were taken.[bold emphasis added]

b. A referee must never offer or provide an opinion concerning information that would affect play. Examples include, but are not limited to:

(1) whether a legal hit can be made on a prospective shot or what method or type of stroke might be used to execute a shot, unless the matter is specifically referred to in a rule and required to be explained under Rule 9.2.1(a); [bold emphasis added]
(2) whether a ball will fit through a gap;
(3) how the table seems to be playing.

c. If a player, after receiving either factual information or rules information from a referee, changes their mind about how to proceed with their game or what shot to take, the information provided is not considered to have affected play under the provisions of Rule 9.2.1(b).[bold emphasis added]

Bottom line - the BCAPL long ago abandoned the belief and practice that referees are forbidden to speak on matters involving rules. Ask about a BCAPL rule, and a BCAPL referee is required to give you the best of their knowledge. Also long ago abandoned is the old practice of getting an opponent's permission to explain rules.

It continues to be the practice that BCAPL referees cannot offer advice on how to actually execute a shot, with the exception of a frozen cue ball, since the execution of such a shot is specifically referred to in BCAPL Rule 1.20.2, and therefore required to be explained by the referee, if asked, under 9.2.1(c). (The highlighted the parts of the rule above.) Please see BCAPL Applied Ruling 9.2, Situations 1 and 2, for a most excellent discussion and example of the referee handling a frozen ball situation.

The "Statement of Principles" from the BCAPL rulebook also has good information on the BCAPL's beliefs and practices regarding this subject.

More to come...gotta run.

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.