BCA Rules Clarification and Etiquette - Hand In Pocket

TheNewSharkster

TheNewSharkster

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I am new to BCA this season. I took the time to read over the rules and feel like I have a good understanding. One particular subject isn't completely clear to me. On one hand the penatly seems very severe. On the other I am not sure exactly how to interpret the rules.

The rule in question is placing your hand in a pocket. Here is the rules for reference:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook.aspx

Placing hand in pocket:
It is a deliberate foul if you catch any ball that is
falling into a pocket, or place your hand into a pocket while any ball in
play is in motion near that pocket. (AR p. 91)
First violation of (d): if the cue ball, ball in hand. If an object ball, your
opponent may have the ball placed along the lip of the pocket, pocketed,
or left in position. However, it is loss of game if the ball involved is the
game winning ball. (8-Ball exception for first violation: if the 8-ball is
involved and it is the break shot, it is not loss of game).

So this is only BIH if it is the cue ball going towards the pocket? If it is any other ball it is spotted in front of the pocket with no BIH?

From a etiquette standpoint I am unsure how to handle this situation. BCA considers this a 'Deliberate Foul'. First time is a warning and second time is loss of game. So here is why I struggle with this rule. If somebody puts a hand in the pocket but the ball clearly doesn't touch them. In most cases a person does this when they think the cue ball is going to scratch. So it would be BIH. Is it nitty for me to take the BIH? Since this is considered a 'Deliberate Foul' it should be my responsibility to warn my opponent, but as soon as I warn them I would also need to take the BIH.
 
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Look, its real simple; Don't put you hand into any pocket while any ball on the table is in motion. Just don't !

Also note: unless you are the shooter, you should be sitting in your seat.
 
MitchAlsup said:
Look, its real simple; Don't put you hand into any pocket while any ball on the table is in motion. Just don't !

Also note: unless you are the shooter, you should be sitting in your seat.
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I don't put my hand in the pocket. I have seen a couple of people do this during league. It hasn't happened against me...yet. My questions are in regards to when a opponent does this during there turn at the table.
 
TheNewSharkster said:
I am new to BCA this season. I took the time to read over the rules and feel like I have a good understanding. One particular subject isn't completely clear to me. On one hand the penatly seems very severe. On the other I am not sure exactly how to interpret the rules.

The rule in question is placing your hand in a pocket. Here is the rules for reference:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook.aspx

Placing hand in pocket:
It is a deliberate foul if you catch any ball that is
falling into a pocket, or place your hand into a pocket while any ball in
play is in motion near that pocket. (AR p. 91)
First violation of (d): if the cue ball, ball in hand. If an object ball, your
opponent may have the ball placed along the lip of the pocket, pocketed,
or left in position. However, it is loss of game if the ball involved is the
game winning ball. (8-Ball exception for first violation: if the 8-ball is
involved and it is the break shot, it is not loss of game).

So this is only BIH if it is the cue ball going towards the pocket? If it is any other ball it is spotted in front of the pocket with no BIH?

From a etiquette standpoint I am unsure how to handle this situation. BCA considers this a 'Deliberate Foul'. First time is a warning and second time is loss of game. So here is why I struggle with this rule. If somebody puts a hand in the pocket but the ball clearly doesn't touch them. In most cases a person does this when they think the cue ball is going to scratch. So it would be BIH. Is it nitty for me to take the BIH? Since this is considered a 'Deliberate Foul' it should be my responsibility to warn my opponent, but as soon as I warn them I would also need to take the BIH.
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For the BCAPL Nationals in July, the tables will be open, no need to use $1 coins. That being siad, there is no reason to "catch a ball" before it falls into the pocket. You can simply retrieve it from the racking end of the table.

I think the ruling comes from this scenario.......let's say your opponent makes a shot and the cue ball is rolling toward the corner pocket. He thinks it will be a scratch and puts his hand in to catch the cue ball. The cue ball ends up rubbing the rail and stays on the table. You think he touched it with his hand and he says he didn't touch it. This starts a long and heated argument over whether the ball has been touched.

So....basically, the BCAPL has made it a foul and done away with long arguments whether the ball has been touched.

It's also a foul to pick up the cue ball while it is still rolling. Basically, just let the balls roll into a pocket or come to a complete stop before picking them up. After all, what's the hurry?
 
TheNewSharkster said:
So if my opponent put his hand in the pocket but clearly doesn't touch the cue ball it wouldn't be "nitty" for me to take BIH?
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What if your opponent is between you and the table and blocking your line of sight?
Sometimes you don't have any choice but call the foul...just sayin.
 
Official BCAPL response

tucson9ball said:
I think the ruling comes from this scenario.......let's say your opponent makes a shot and the cue ball is rolling toward the corner pocket. He thinks it will be a scratch and puts his hand in to catch the cue ball. The cue ball ends up rubbing the rail and stays on the table. You think he touched it with his hand and he says he didn't touch it. This starts a long and heated argument over whether the ball has been touched.
Click to expand...
This ^^^^^^^

tucson9ball said:
So....basically, the BCAPL has made it a foul and done away with long arguments whether the ball has been touched.
Click to expand...
And this^^^^^^. Completely side stepping any argument is EXACTLY the reason the rule is written the way it is.

tucson9ball said:
After all, what's the hurry?
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And most of all, THIS!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thanks for saving me some typing, Tuscon.

As to the OP confusion - if CB, BIH plus warning. If OB, along with the warning the offended player may have ball pocketed, placed on lip of pocket, or left in position. Sound unusual and severe? It is. Sound silly? Not half as silly as sticking your hand anywhere near a pocket. Yes, I understand lots of bar players do it, and when the 8-ball goes on the snap coin-op tables can be a pain. That's the reason for the one time 8-ball on the snap exception in the rule. We are trying not to penalize life-long programming of some bar players. However, the bottom line is still two paragraphs above. Get your hands away from the pockets!!!!

As far as how to handle the warnings, if your opponent does it you just politely explain the rule and give them the warning after the first offense.

As far as severe - again...we don't want hands anywhere near the pocket. That is NOT a part of the game. The severity of the penalty for a second offense reflects that.

As far as whether it's a nit move - not my department. I just explain and enforce the rules. Morals are for argument in endless AZB threads.:)

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* Unless specifically stated, the contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Unless specifically stated, no reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post.
* Neither I, nor any BCAPL referee, make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
* Since 2004, there is no such thing as a "BCA Referee". The BCA no longer has any program to train, certify or sanction billiards referees or officials. The BCAPL maintains what we consider to be the most structured, complete and intensive referee training program available.
* The BCAPL has no association with the Billiard Congress of America other than in their capacity as a member of the BCA. The letters "BCA" in BCAPL do not stand for "Billiard Congress of America, nor for anything at all.
* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.
 
TheNewSharkster said:
I don't put my hand in the pocket. I have seen a couple of people do this during league. It hasn't happened against me...yet. My questions are in regards to when a opponent does this during there turn at the table.
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I understand doing this during league. Sometimes it's a pain when the 8 is made on the break and you have to call over the bar tender to open up the table.
If the cue ball is going to scratch, I have never understood why people feel the need to catch it? It comes back out on the breaking side of the table.

During league I have never called this foul. Basically, league is just for fun. At a National tournament when one race to 5 decides whether you move on or get knocked out, it's a good idea to know the rules.

I'm not the kind of guy who stands next to the table while my opponent is shootin. I go back to my chair and observe from maybe 8ft to 10ft away. From there I can see what he is shooting without being in his way. When it's my turn I approach the table again. So....while my opponent is at the table, I don't see any reason why he would be picking up any ball that is on the playing surface?
 
tucson9ball said:
What if your opponent is between you and the table and blocking your line of sight?
Click to expand...

As for this, as the player in the chair you have every right to get out of the chair and adjust your position so that you can see the action. And you should. If you can't see it almost always means the your opponent's back is to you, so moving isn't going to bother them even if they are down on a shot.

Both as an instructor and as a referee giving my Vegas Survival clinics to teams, for many years i have been telling players: When your opponent is up, never, and I mean NEVER NEVER EVER...(is there any part of NEVER that you don't understand??)...NEVER take your eyes off the action. And if you are in a position such that you can't see the CB when the opponent is down on a shot...MOVE!!!!!

Buddy
 
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tatcat2000 said:
As for this, as the player in the chair you have every right to get out of the chair and adjust your position so that you can see the action. And you should. If you can't see it almost always means the your opponent's back is to you, so moving isn't going to bother them even if they are down on a shot.

Both as an instructor and as a referee giving my Vegas Survival clinics to teams, for many years i have been telling players: When your opponent is up, never, and I mean NEVER NEVER EVER...(is there any part of NEVER that you don't understand??)...NEVER take your eyes off the action. And if you are in a position such that you can't see the CB when the opponent is down on a shot...MOVE!!!!!

Buddy
Click to expand...

I've been trying to get my son to do this, we play in tournaments and in a Masters league and he has the Jr Nationals coming up. He has a habit of walking away from the table and then turning to talk to someone, look around, etc... instead of watching what is going on at the table. Thanks for posting this, I'll make sure he reads it. He also loves to leave his cue on the table long after the shot is done, that's just betting for a ball to smack into it for a ball in hand foul.
 
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