BCA Rules Experts Please Reply

[Bruce S. de Lis]

Well I got a Question as I can not find the answer in my, BCA League Players Handbook . Player “A” needs to use a Rake Bridge, and wants to place a Cloth on the Rake to protect his Cues Shaft from being Scratched.

Allowed, or not Allowed?


Was the subject of an interesting discussion, debate today in Lizard Acres.

My guess is is allowed, but I am not sure?

 

[nfty9er]

common sense

Well I got a Question as I can not find the answer in my, BCA League Players Handbook . Player “A” needs to use a Rake Bridge, and wants to place a Cloth on the Rake to protect his Cues Shaft from being Scratched.

Allowed, or not Allowed?


Was the subject of an interesting discussion, debate today in Lizard Acres.

My guess is is allowed, but I am not sure?

If you did not allow it that would be like disallowing a glove. .

 

[jhendri2]

Though I'm not a "league" player nor a BCA rules expert. I would allow it while gambling or in a tournament since the cloth is neither an advantage nor disadvantage. But....if the object ball or cue ball come in contact with the cloth, this would be a foul and I would make Player A aware of that before shooting.

Just what I would do....

Jim

 

[td873]

Allowed, or not Allowed?

Under the latest edition of the BCA Rules for Tournament Play (2005 ed.):
Pursuant to Rule 1.3: Players may not use equipment or accessory items for purposes or in a manner other than those for which the items were intended.

[Cloth is intended not to be used on the bridge head.] Therefore, using it is not allowed.

However

- no penalty is imposed unless a referee imposes one under rule 2.15.
2.15 INAPPROPRIATE USE OF EQUIPMENT
The referee should be alert for a player using equipment [] for purposes or in a manner other than those for which they were intended []. Generally no penalty is applied. However, should a player persist in such activity or use of such equipment, after having been advised that such activity or use is not permissible, the referee or other tournament official may take action as appropriate under the provisions of “Unsportsmanlike Conduct”.

I didn't notice any other general rules of pocket billiards directed to your scenario, but there might be some game specific rules. It seems like if you are not in a tournament or league, it doesn't matter, and even if you are - only a referee can impose a penalty.

-td

 

[jhendri2]

Under the latest edition of the BCA Rules for Tournament Play (2005 ed.):
Pursuant to Rule 1.3: Players may not use equipment or accessory items for purposes or in a manner other than those for which the items were intended.

[Cloth is intended not to be used on the bridge head.] Therefore, using it is not allowed.



-td

While I am not disagreeing with you, is this violating the "spirit" of the rule? I would think this rule was written to prevent players from gaining an advantage using equipment in which it was not intended.

So...If a cheap brass bridge with "ridges" on it were the only thing standing between you and winning a tournament, would you scratch the shaft of your Richard Black?

Like I say, I am not arguing, but I just don't see the harm...

Jim

 

[nfty9er]

And

While I am not disagreeing with you, is this violating the "spirit" of the rule? I would think this rule was written to prevent players from gaining an advantage using equipment in which it was not intended.

So...If a cheap brass bridge with "ridges" on it were the only thing standing between you and winning a tournament, would you scratch the shaft of your Richard Black?

Like I say, I am not arguing, but I just don't see the harm...

Jim

And who can say that rag you keep in your case was not "intended" for just such scenarios. I can only be the judge of what my equipment is intended for, be it to dry my hands over cover unsmooth rakes.

 

[td873]

While I am not disagreeing with you, is this violating the "spirit" of the rule? I would think this rule was written to prevent players from gaining an advantage using equipment in which it was not intended.

First - don't shoot the messenger. The rules are explicit - you can't use items for unintended purposes. Period. It's pretty clear IMO.

Second - The rules ALSO say that just because it is not allowed doesn't mean doing it get's you penalizezd. (I draw your attention to the fact that you left that piece out of your quote.) The piece you cut out indicated that there is no corresponding penalty to the referenced rule unless you are warned by the referee and then did it anyway (which is a situation that the original post did not contemplate). Since no penalty is applied if the ref isn't watching, or if he doesn't warn you, there is nothing stopping you from doing it. It's like saying "don't speed, but there are no cops to ticket you."

So...If a cheap brass bridge with "ridges" on it were the only thing standing between you and winning a tournament, would you scratch the shaft of your Richard Black?

If my table had a brass bridge with ridges, and I used the cloth to cover the bridge, I would be using cloth for an unintended purpose. The rule is pretty simple really. Now, whether I got penalized or not, that is up to the ref.

That's why - I carry two bridges in my case - the one with padded sides and the cantilever action AND a bat bridge. I'm set.

-td <- just presents the rules, doesn't write them.

 

[jhendri2]

First - don't shoot the messenger. The rules are explicit - you can't use items for unintended purposes. Period. It's pretty clear IMO.

Second - The rules ALSO say that just because it is not allowed doesn't mean doing it get's you penalizezd. (I draw your attention to the fact that you left that piece out of your quote.) The piece you cut out indicated that there is no corresponding penalty to the referenced rule unless you are warned by the referee and then did it anyway (which is a situation that the original post did not contemplate). Since no penalty is applied if the ref isn't watching, or if he doesn't warn you, there is nothing stopping you from doing it. It's like saying "don't speed, but there are no cops to ticket you."


If my table had a brass bridge with ridges, and I used the cloth to cover the bridge, I would be using cloth for an unintended purpose. The rule is pretty simple really. Now, whether I got penalized or not, that is up to the ref.

That's why - I carry two bridges in my case - the one with padded sides and the cantilever action AND a bat bridge. I'm set.

-td <- just presents the rules, doesn't write them.

td -

I'm not disagreeing with you, please don't take offense. I just disagree with that rule being applied in this instance. So what do you attach your bridge head to? A cue? Is a cue intended to be used as a bridge?

Jim

 

[nfty9er]

Well my friend

First - don't shoot the messenger. The rules are explicit - you can't use items for unintended purposes. Period. It's pretty clear IMO.

Second - The rules ALSO say that just because it is not allowed doesn't mean doing it get's you penalizezd. (I draw your attention to the fact that you left that piece out of your quote.) The piece you cut out indicated that there is no corresponding penalty to the referenced rule unless you are warned by the referee and then did it anyway (which is a situation that the original post did not contemplate). Since no penalty is applied if the ref isn't watching, or if he doesn't warn you, there is nothing stopping you from doing it. It's like saying "don't speed, but there are no cops to ticket you."


If my table had a brass bridge with ridges, and I used the cloth to cover the bridge, I would be using cloth for an unintended purpose. The rule is pretty simple really. Now, whether I got penalized or not, that is up to the ref.

That's why - I carry two bridges in my case - the one with padded sides and the cantilever action AND a bat bridge. I'm set.

-td <- just presents the rules, doesn't write them.

Where does it say that cloth is not intended for a rake?
If I can wear cloth on my fingers, I can have cloth on a rake, which is taking the place of my fingers.

 

[td873]

I just disagree with that rule being applied in this instance.
Jim

No offense taken.
Rememeber that there are two rules here. One is broken no matter what you believe is right and just in the world. The other is discretionary.

The rules allow for situations where non-harmful situations shouldn't end up in a penalty (for exmaple the situation we are discussing). You break a rule by using the cloth in an unintended way (violation of 1.3). That is clear. But what is also clear is that there may be no penalty for breaking the rule - unless the ref thinks that it is unsportsmanlike. For example, you used a whole 9' table's worth of cloth on the bridge - that might be disruptive.

So what do you attach your bridge head to? A cue? Is a cue intended to be used as a bridge?

Yes.
Every bridge under every table is a bridgehead attached to a cue! doh! But I've never seen one wrapped in cloth...

-td

 

[jhendri2]

No offense taken.
Rememeber that there are two rules here. One is broken no matter what you believe is right and just in the world. The other is discretionary.

The rules allow for situations where non-harmful situations shouldn't end up in a penalty (for exmaple the situation we are discussing). You break a rule by using the cloth in an unintended way (violation of 1.3). That is clear. But what is also clear is that there may be no penalty for breaking the rule - unless the ref thinks that it is unsportsmanlike. For example, you used a whole 9' table's worth of cloth on the bridge - that might be disruptive.



Yes.
Every bridge under every table is a bridgehead attached to a cue! doh! But I've never seen one wrapped in cloth...

-td

Every bridge is attached to a cue without a ferrule and a tip. Do you attach yours to your break cue (meant for breaking) or a house cue (meant for playing).

We're never going to convince each other, we'll just have to agree to disagree .

If we ever get to meet each other to play we'll discuss further then .

Jim

 

[td873]

Where does it say that cloth is not intended for a rake?

Since you asked:

Cloth is described in the BCA equipment specifications as being used to cover the playing bed of the table. I'm pretty sure that they didn't mean to say 'rake' instead

Further: the rake is defined as "a grooved device mounted on a handle providing support for the shaft of the cue during shots ..." No mention of cloth.

I put these two together and determine that cloth goes on the table, and not on the rake...

-td

 

[td873]

Every bridge is attached to a cue without a ferrule and a tip. Do you attach yours to your break cue (meant for breaking) or a house cue (meant for playing).

We're never going to convince each other, we'll just have to agree to disagree .

If we ever get to meet each other to play we'll discuss further then .

Jim

I think that you are just trying to poke holes in a sound argument. I'm convinced that every referee in the pool world would agree that using any cue as a mechanical meets the BCA definition: "A mechanical bridge is a grooved device mounted on a handle providing support for the shaft during [certain shots]." Clearly any cue or any handle (e.g., broom) will suffice. I'm think the rules are clear. If it's not clear to you, I have to wonder about your sanity (j/k)

BTW, my dad was stationed at Altus for a few years way back...

-td

 

[jhendri2]

I think that you are just trying to poke holes in a sound argument. I'm convinced that every referee in the pool world would agree that using any cue as a mechanical meets the BCA definition: "A mechanical bridge is a grooved device mounted on a handle providing support for the shaft during [certain shots]." Clearly any cue or any handle (e.g., broom) will suffice. I'm think the rules are clear. If it's not clear to you, I have to wonder about your sanity (j/k)

BTW, my dad was stationed at Altus for a few years way back...

-td

Dude..after nearly 16 years in the military, everyone questions my sanity! When was your Dad stationed here?

BTW, to use your same argument, I believe "every referee in the pool world would agree" that it's ok to protect your cue with a cloth LOL !!!!

Where's your Dad stationed now? BTW...Just to cheer you up...I Love my customized Black Baron!!!! Hopefully, you can agree with that !

Jim

 

[Ronoh]

Hmm...

I think I'll use some self adhesive contact felt on my "Batman" snap on bridge to see if get fouled.

 

[Regulator1956]

Hmm...

I think I'll use some self adhesive contact felt on my "Batman" snap on bridge to see if get fouled.

I agree with Ronoh and others, if it's "intended" then it's intended.

The rules don't said a pronged bridge of bare metal or plastic. If I carry a cloth with me for the ONLY purpose to wrap my bridge, how is that a violation??

If you say it is, what about glueing the cloth to the bridge or sewing it to the bridge? How is that different from a thick coat of paint?

 

[Hal]

The gentleman that spoke of the glove is correct IMO. If you can wear a glove (cloth) on your bridge hand, then you can put a glove (cloth) on the metal bridge.

 

[Bruce S. de Lis]

First Off this was a Discussion of what someone does Frequently. Towel on Metal Bridge to save Shaft.

I though is it is a No No, as the Bridge is Being Modified, or Enhanced?

Three or Four of us discussed the Towel, and as we do not play for anything but MOSTLY Fun, and Quarters.

It is really no big deal. Just thought I would pop the question, as the BCA Rule Book I have I could not find a answer that was Black & White to us.

 

[td873]

Where's your Dad stationed now? BTW...Just to cheer you up...I Love my customized Black Baron!!!!

Dad retired some time ago (Goodfellow AFB, San Angelo, TX). My bro just got promoted to Lt. Col. and then shipped to Minot, ND! lol. Can you believe the luck...

-td

 

[jhendri2]

Dad retired some time ago (Goodfellow AFB, San Angelo, TX). My bro just got promoted to Lt. Col. and then shipped to Minot, ND! lol. Can you believe the luck...

-td

Why not Minot ? Hope he has some good cold weather gear!

Jim