BCA Rulez - another question

[thefonz]

well, that was a quick answer on my last thread, you guys are right on top of things. well here's the next one.

two players playing 8 ball. the score between both teams leaves player A requiring an ERO in the final game against player B. player A breaks making a ball and shoots 3 balls before missing. player B comes to the table, makes 3 balls securing the win for his team, then misses. Player A comes to the table knowing that his team has lost promptly shoots two of player B's balls down while player B is being distracted by his buddies congratulating him on securing the win. Finally noticing that player A is shooting the wrong balls, Player B calls foul. A debate on what is to continue next ensues.

Does the following under BCAP rules still apply?
3. Once they are established, groups can never change for the remainder of that game. If a player shoots the wrong group and no foul is called before the next shot and the player continues to shoot at that group, or if at any time during the game it is discovered by either player or a referee that the players are shooting the wrong groups, the game will be
replayed with the player who broke the game breaking again.

just curious, not like i'd do something like this

 

[RichLec]

If player a made it all the way to the 8 and made a legal shot sink or miss that group becomes their group. But if at anytime a foul is called then all balls down remain doen and player b gets BIH. At least thats how i read it before..

 

[RichLec]

Foul has to be called before shot on the 8

 

[tatcat2000]

Official BCAPL response

Let me start with a quote from BCAPL Applied Riling 1.45, Unsportsmanlike Conduct:

"Unless specifically stated otherwise, no act, failure to act, statement, or omission of information that would normally be legal under the rules is exempt from being penalized under Rule 1.45 if it is the judgment of a referee or other event official that it was committed in an unsportsmanlike manner."

Now - the above quote does not correspond exactly to the OP situation, because the OP situation specifies an act that would not "normally be legal" under the rules - the act of shooting the wrong group. However, the principle of the applied ruling still applies - the act of intentionally shooting the wrong group is not within the spirit that BCAPL Rule 2-6-3 was written for. The spirit of the rule clearly is to deal with unintentionally shooting the wrong group with no foul being called.

In the OP's situation, the intentional act by player A of trying to manipulate the rules should be adjudged as UC, and I would recommend loss of game as a penalty. The clear concept that can be understood from a reading of Applied Ruling 1.45 is that using a knowledge of the rules to gain an advantage may at times be legal, but intentionally manipulating the game in a UC manner may be penalized as such. In the OP's situation, it is the UC nature of the intentional act that is the compelling factor.


Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

Find the Official Rules of the BCA Pool League here:

http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
* Neither I nor any BCAPL referee make any policy decisions regarding BCAPL Rules. Any and all decisions, interpretations, or Applied Rulings are made by the BCAPL National Office and are solely their responsibility. BCAPL referees are enforcers of rules, not legislators. BCAPL Rules 9.5.3 and 9.5.4 and the BCAPL Rules "Statement of Principles" apply.
* No reference to, inference concerning, or comment on any other set of rules (WPA, APA, VNEA, TAP, or any other set of rules, public or private) is intended or should be derived from this post unless specifically stated.
* For General Rules, 8-Ball, 9-Ball, 10-Ball, and 14.1 Continuous: there is no such thing as "BCA Rules" other than in the sense that the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) publishes various rules, including the World Pool-Billiard Association's "World Standardized Rules" for those games. The BCA has no rules committee. The BCA does not edit, nor is responsible for the content of, the World Standardized Rules. The Official Rules of the BCAPL is a separate and independent set of rules and, to avoid confusion, should not be referred to as "BCA Rules".
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* The BCAPL has not addressed every imaginable rules issue, nor will it ever likely be able to, as evidenced by the seemingly endless situations that people dream up or that (more frequently) actually happen. If I do not have the answer to a question I will tell you so, then I will get a ruling from the BCAPL National Office and get back to you as soon as I can. If deemed necessary, the BCAPL will then add the ruling to the "Applied Rulings" section of The Official Rules of the BCA Pool League.
* All BCAPL members are, as always, encouraged to e-mail Bill Stock at the BCAPL National Office, bill@playcsi.com, with any comments, concerns or suggestions about the BCAPL rules.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑

You can't get a more definitive answer than that. :wink:

Buddy, let me ask you this though just to be clear. Assuming the shooting of the wrong group was not intentional but rather was an honest mistake. If this is the case then does the rule mean that if the other player isn't paying attention and calls a foul prior to the shooter sinking the next wrong ball that a re-rack results? I ask because some people seemed to think that as long as it's caught before the 8 it's a foul, but the way I read the rule it would be a re-rack once the shooter continues after the first shot to shoot at the wrong group.

 

[cajunfats]

Excellent reponse

As a former Assistant League and Program Director at the Billiard Congress back in the 90's, I want to applaud the detailed and concise explanation that Mr. Eick gave for the OP situation. Determining infractions from afar isn't always easy, and the evidence must be thorough. Recognizing at what point one rule supersedes another is extremely difficult. You should be happy to know you have such well trained and impartial judgements being rendered. From my viewpoint, Mr. Eick is quite professional in his craft. Green on the way.

 

[PaulieB]

Knowing at what point the league rules and the "get the crap beat out of you in the parking lot" rules supercede each other gets kinda difficult too.

Somebody tries that trick and gets away with it that week won't be playing ANY pool for about a month or more in the places I used to play at...

 

[tatcat2000]

Assuming the shooting of the wrong group was not intentional but rather was an honest mistake. If this is the case then does the rule mean that if the other player isn't paying attention and calls a foul prior to the shooter sinking the next wrong ball that a re-rack results?....the way I read the rule it would be a re-rack once the shooter continues after the first shot to shoot at the wrong group.

Exactly.

I ask because some people seemed to think that as long as it's caught before the 8 it's a foul...

Incorrect in BCAPL play. Also incorrect under WSR. Appropriate rules are:

BCAPL Rule 2-6-3;
WSR Regulation 20.

Neither provide any provision for "before the 8-ball is legal ball". I can't answer for other rule sets.

Buddy

P.S. Sorry for the delay Dogs - up to my neck in OK State BCAPL last few days...

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Exactly.



Incorrect in BCAPL play. Also incorrect under WSR. Appropriate rules are:

BCAPL Rule 2-6-3;
WSR Regulation 20.

Neither provide any provision for "before the 8-ball is legal ball". I can't answer for other rule sets.

Buddy

P.S. Sorry for the delay Dogs - up to my neck in OK State BCAPL last few days...

So in other words, if a player calls a foul after the first shot at the wrong group (but before any subsequent shots) it is a foul. But after any subsequent shots at the wrong group, it is a re-rack. You cannot call a foul after the shooter hits a 2nd shot at the wrong group, only a re-rack can be declared?

That's the way I read 2-6-3.

 

[tatcat2000]

So in other words, if a player calls a foul after the first shot at the wrong group (but before any subsequent shots) it is a foul. But after any subsequent shots at the wrong group, it is a re-rack. You cannot call a foul after the shooter hits a 2nd shot at the wrong group, only a re-rack can be declared?

That's the way I read 2-6-3.

Correct.

The moral/lesson is - and, btw, exactly what I teach in pre-tourney and rules clinics and advise my own teammates - never, and I mean NEVER (is there any part of NEVER that you don't understand?), NEVER take your eyes off the table when it is your opponent's inning.

B

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

What a dumb f*cking rule. Who made that one up?

Well, I think the idea of the rule is to eliminate a situation where a guy just keeps his mouth shut and let's the other guy run out all the wrong balls and then calls it on him. It's a sportsmanship thing. If your opponent plays at the wrong group, call it immediately.