BCAPL Rule 2.10 Loss of Game -- Clarification Please

[Cuebacca]

At league last night, it was mentioned that there's a "new rule" that banks on the 8-ball must be called. This was presented to mean, for example, if one called the 8-ball in the corner pocket, and it missed badly enough to go around 4 rails back into the same corner that was called, it would be a slopped shot and thus loss of game.

I didn't believe it at first, but the rule is printed as follows. See part (e), which I highlighted in red. Note, the bold and italics are included in the BCAPL's notation, which I'll get to in a moment.

2.10 Loss of Game
You lose the game if:
a. you illegally pocket the 8-ball;
b. you jump the 8-ball off the table on any shot other than the break;
c. you pocket the 8-ball on the same shot as the last ball of your group;
d. you violate any General Rule that requires loss of game as a penalty;
e. you pocket the 8-ball on a bank shot that you do not call. Rule 1.17.5 does not apply to 8-Ball.​

(Don't worry about Rule 1.17.5. It's part of the new 10-ball rules so it doesn't affect my question for this thread.)

So my question is, how do you interpret rule 2.10(e)?

Does it actually mean that you need to say "bank"?

Or is it just trying to reinforce the rule that that a bank shot is not obvious and will be deemed as slop if the pocket is not called?

Thinking about this more, I interpret it to mean the latter, but it looks like I'm in the minority so far.

The main thing I have to back up my position is that "new rules" are printed in bold and italics in the BCAPL rule book, and since 2.10(e) isn't, then it's not a new rule; but if I'm correct, I think that (e) should be edited to remind the reader that only the pocket needs to be called.

If anyone from the rules committee posts on here, or Mark G, if you're reading this, your reply would be appreciated.

 

[Cuebacca]

If no one "official" sees this here, I'll go ahead and email the question in and post the reply; but I do think any AZ'er who's in a BCA Pool League should want to know about this, in case it comes up. It may never come up through a whole season, but if it does, it's definitely important.

 

[BRKNRUN]

I see a future addition to this rule....

(Unless the ball goes in the same pocket that was "called" by the player)


I think the "intent" of the rule is to avoid the possibility of someone banking for the side but hitting is so bad it goes in the corner.

or the shot that could be either cut into a side pocket or banked cross side to either the other side pocket or a corner pocket.

 

[Cornerman]

So my question is, how do you interpret rule 2.10(e)?

Does it actually mean that you need to say "bank"?

No

Or is it just trying to reinforce the rule that that a bank shot is not obvious and will be deemed as slop if the pocket is not called?

Yes.


Fred <~~~ IMO

 

[bignasty]

well

in the case of a bank shot. when they play in a banks ring game they have to call 1 rail or 2 rails etc etc... and the name of the game is banks! so if your playing 8 ball i would assume that one should call every bank shot they shoot, i mean if you have to call your bank in a banks game then you should have to call it in a 8 ball game! just what i think!

 

[chris_williams]

In the BCAPL you need only call pocket and ball. It doesnt matter how it got there. Obvious shots need not be called. Banks and combos are not obvious shots.

As long as the ball goes in the pocket you called you are o.k.

 

[ridewiththewind]

Or is it just trying to reinforce the rule that that a bank shot is not obvious and will be deemed as slop if the pocket is not called?

I do not have my BCA rule book handy, but I believe it does say that all banks, kicks, and combination shots are considered to be not obvious, and therefore the ball and pocket should be clearly indicated.

Personally, I feel that the 8 should be called, period. It removes any speculation. Seriously, how difficult is it to just open one's mouth?

In the women's league I play on, they want EVERY single ball and pocket called...whether obvious or not. I have gotten so into the habit of doing this, that I just naturally carry it with me into BCA play. I have never had a shot disputed in doing so...it's made clear from the onset.


As to the 8 on a bank...I simply say "8 cross-side" or "8 cross-corner"...and I then usually tap the intended pocket for good measure.

Maybe it's me....but I really do not understand why there are so many conflicts over just calling the ball and pocket...seems like a no brainer to me.

Lisa

 

[td873]

At league last night, it was mentioned that there's a "new rule" that banks on the 8-ball must be called. This was presented to mean, for example, if one called the 8-ball in the corner pocket, and it missed badly enough to go around 4 rails back into the same corner that was called, it would be a slopped shot and thus loss of game.

I didn't believe it at first, but the rule is printed as follows. See part (e), which I highlighted in red. Note, the bold and italics are included in the BCAPL's notation, which I'll get to in a moment.

2.10 Loss of Game
You lose the game if:
a. you illegally pocket the 8-ball;
b. you jump the 8-ball off the table on any shot other than the break;
c. you pocket the 8-ball on the same shot as the last ball of your group;
d. you violate any General Rule that requires loss of game as a penalty;
e. you pocket the 8-ball on a bank shot that you do not call. Rule 1.17.5 does not apply to 8-Ball.​

Based on the rules, you only have to call the pocket and ball. And Rule 1.17(4) specifically addresses your described situation:

When calling bank shots, kick shots, and combination shots, you only have to designate the called ball and the called pocket. [...] When shoting a bank shot or kick shot you do not have to say the word "bank" or "kick" nor specify which cushions will be involved in the shot.​

Thus, calling the 8 in the corner for a straight in shot or a 4 rail bank would sound exactly the same. And, shooting 4 rails in your situation would be a win. Note that calling the 8 and the pocket for a normal shot, a bank or a kick will all appear exactly the same. [e.g., "8 in this side pocket" whether straight in, kick or bank]. Pocketing the ball, in any fashion would be a legal shot.

The moral of this story is, call the ball and the pocket, and you will be on the good side of the law.

-td

 

[Cuebacca]

I have read the rules and understand the principle of "call shot" (formerly known by some as "call pocket"). To clarify this part of my initial post:

Is Rule 2.12(e) just trying to reinforce the rule that that a bank shot is not obvious and will be deemed as slop if the pocket is not called?

From previously knowing the rules of 8-ball, and from the replies here, I do believe the answer is "yes".

However, there are some exceptions to general rules when the 8-ball is involved, and it is possible that a change had been made in the latest revision of the rules, so I just wanted to make sure that Rule 2.12(e) was not trying to establish a special case. This has already caused confusion in my league, but so far I have not seen it come up in a game. I just hoped to get clarification and to provide feedback to the BCAPL that the rule could be more clear.

Thanks for your replies everyone.

Edited: to remove unproductive aspects

 

[ridewiththewind]

I'm not sure about others...but my point was that sometimes I feel the BCA makes the rules more complicated than they need to be. If they would just make it call ball and pocket on every shot, it would alleviate a lot of not only confusion, but people taking advantage with some hinky shots.

Lisa

 

[td873]

Caught you in edit mode as well, so quid pro quo, I might as well address it. You probably figured it would happen

Thanks for editing that part out, but I already started quoting you so I might as well address it.

read the rules

K. I wasn't being snotty, just pointing out the obvious. RTFM is the general rule of thumb. Sorry if it came across the internet in an offensive way. But, please, don't be so sensitive.

It also helps to read the initial post. If you can't tell that I have read the rules, and have an above-average understanding of them, I don't know what I can do for you.

I did. And I tried to answer the question with a quote from the rules. I thought perhaps you may have missed the relevant one.

There is such a thing as a "special case", which means an exception to the general rule. I wanted to make sure that this was not one, not only for myself, but for other BCAPL members.

What is the special case? Call ball, call pocket, shoot. I didn't see an exception applying. Maybe I'm dense. Wouldn't be the first time.

I guess posting this on AZ was a mistake, and I should have gone straight to the BCAPL with a suggestion on how to make the rule more clear. Some people just can't check their superiority complex at the door.

Pot. Kettle.


[edit] And for the record the original question was:

So my question is, how do you interpret rule 2.10(e)? Does it actually mean that you need to say "bank"?

To me, the rules arepretty clear, you don't have to say bank. Just call the pocket. The BCA clearly knows how to indicate "you don't have to say bank" so it would be fair to reason they would know how to say "you must say bank on the 8 ball."

But, back to the matter at hand, I'm not sure why you reacted to my post in such a negative way. You asked a question, and I tried to answer as best I could. And, over the years you've been on AZ, I didn't take you for sensitive type. Next time, I'll sprinkle in some relaxing comments.

-td <- jury is still out on actual superiority

 

[Cuebacca]

What is the special case? Call ball, call pocket, shoot. I didn't see an exception applying.

What I'm saying is that Rule 2.12(e) can be mis-interpreted to be a special case; it can be mis-interpreted to mean that a bank shot must be declared as a bank shot. If that were true, it would be a special case since normally one only needs to call ball and pocket.

I just think it would be more clear if it were reworded something like:

e. you pocket the 8-ball in a non-obvious pocket without calling it.​

or

e. you pocket the 8-ball on a bank shot that you do not call. See rule 1.17 for definition of call shot.​

P.S. As I said in the rep I left, I apologize for being rude earlier.

 

[td873]

What I'm saying is that Rule 2.12(e) can be mis-interpreted to be a special case; it can be mis-interpreted to mean that a bank shot must be declared as a bank shot. If that were true, it would be a special case since normally one only needs to call ball and pocket.

I just think it would be more clear if it were reworded something like:

e. you pocket the 8-ball in a non-obvious pocket without calling it.​

or

e. you pocket the 8-ball on a bank shot that you do not call. See rule 1.17 for definition of call shot.​

P.S. As I said in the rep I left, I apologize for being rude earlier.

No worries.

We're just keeping the faithful (addicted) entertained.

-td

 

[tucson9ball]

bank

At league last night, it was mentioned that there's a "new rule" that banks on the 8-ball must be called. This was presented to mean, for example, if one called the 8-ball in the corner pocket, and it missed badly enough to go around 4 rails back into the same corner that was called, it would be a slopped shot and thus loss of game.

I didn't believe it at first, but the rule is printed as follows. See part (e), which I highlighted in red. Note, the bold and italics are included in the BCAPL's notation, which I'll get to in a moment.

2.10 Loss of Game
You lose the game if:
a. you illegally pocket the 8-ball;
b. you jump the 8-ball off the table on any shot other than the break;
c. you pocket the 8-ball on the same shot as the last ball of your group;
d. you violate any General Rule that requires loss of game as a penalty;
e. you pocket the 8-ball on a bank shot that you do not call. Rule 1.17.5 does not apply to 8-Ball.​

(Don't worry about Rule 1.17.5. It's part of the new 10-ball rules so it doesn't affect my question for this thread.)

So my question is, how do you interpret rule 2.10(e)?

Does it actually mean that you need to say "bank"?

Or is it just trying to reinforce the rule that that a bank shot is not obvious and will be deemed as slop if the pocket is not called?

Thinking about this more, I interpret it to mean the latter, but it looks like I'm in the minority so far.

The main thing I have to back up my position is that "new rules" are printed in bold and italics in the BCAPL rule book, and since 2.10(e) isn't, then it's not a new rule; but if I'm correct, I think that (e) should be edited to remind the reader that only the pocket needs to be called.

If anyone from the rules committee posts on here, or Mark G, if you're reading this, your reply would be appreciated.

This goes back to why calling caroms and kisses and rubbing the rail was done away with. Even when you call a bank you don't have to call how many rails it will hit. Basically, you call the ball and pocket. If called ball goes in called pocket it counts.

 

[Cuebacca]

But, back to the matter at hand, I'm not sure why you reacted to my post in such a negative way. You asked a question, and I tried to answer as best I could. And, over the years you've been on AZ, I didn't take you for sensitive type. Next time, I'll sprinkle in some relaxing comments.

-td <- jury is still out on actual superiority

I guess a few layers of my skin must have exfoliated somehow. We all have our bad days I guess. To answer your question honestly, the remark was just a little frustrating because reading the new rule set was what caused the problem in the first place. LOL. But it's all good.

Cuebacca <- looking forward to these relaxing sprinkles you speak of.

 

[Bill S]

Very Simple.

1.17 (4) When calling bank shots, kick shots and combination shots you only have to designate the called ball and called pocket. If shooting a combination you do not have to say the word "combination" or state which ball will be struck first or the sequence of balls. When shooting a bank shot or kick shot you do not have to say the word "bank" or "kick" nor specify which cushions will be involved in the shot.

2.10 (e) You lose the game if: you pocket the 8-Ball on a bank shot that you do not call.

Simply put: IF YOU BANK THE 8 BALL AND DO NOT CALL THE SHOT, YOU LOSE! You only call the ball and pocket. It can go 3087 rails and still be a legal shot as long as you call the ball and pocket. Bill Stock, BCAPL

 

[Cuebacca]

Thank you, Mr. Stock.