Been asking the bar owner for Diamonds

EtDM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In our town/area of say 150k people, there are say 50 bars where APA is played out of. 10 years ago there were just a handful of them that were trying out the "new" fad and got a diamond table. Because of those few bars and the fact that the Diamond tables play great, I'm not sure if ANY of the other bars still have valley tables for league play. There has to be one somewhere but I can't think of it as I sit here. It's been an interesting transformation over the years to see teams migrate around to different bars until they settle in somewhere they like. Bottom line is: In our area, if you do not have a Diamond table, you will have about a 1% chance of keeping your pool teams. While it's true that some of the bars don't need pool teams, it sure does help on weekday evenings.:smile:

Consider yourself lucky. I'm in an area of close to 500k with surrounding areas, and there are basically no Diamonds to speak of besides one bowling alley in a bad part of town. Add to that only one pool hall that only has furniture grade Olhausens, only three of which are 9 footers, and anything near what you're describing sounds like a fairyland...
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
That's really funny considering how Diamond doesn't have an established league system like Valley does. And lots of people can't give a distinct difference on why they think a Diamond is better than a Valley, they just rehash things people have told them.

That's just plain silly. I don't recall Brunswick having a "league system" when Gold Crowns were being sold by the thousands. In the Chicago area, including the burbs, the good players want Diamonds, plain and simple. They don't want to play on gaff Valley bar boxes with huge pockets.

Heck, even Chris Billiards in Chicago (think Color of Money) has added Diamond bar boxes. We had one bar in town that added a few Diamonds, and the players soon followed. They still had a Valley, but NOBODy shot on it unless the Diamonds were full.

And make no mistake, "dogginda9" is gonna beat anyone on a Valley or a Diamond :) He just prefers the "good" stuff when it is all said and done !!!
 

Banks

Banned
Actually, In Oregon at least, the bars make money on the state run gambling machines.
The state itself is the gambling addict.

The place I put them in had gotten rid of their video poker. It's now a small pool bar surrounded by about a half dozen other bars. Also, being in a decent area, it looks good to people when the business reflects that.

The niche is the teacher.

Why not do some of the leg work for him. Call Diamond up directly. They have deals to put in tables at no cost to the owner, and split/share the revenue from the tables.

I bit the bullet and did the down payment myself. I figure that even if the bar screws up, I'll still have 4 Diamonds that many other places would jump on to get them in. They also hold their value very well.

Did I mention how great it is to play on Diamonds every time I go out?

If other places weren't so far out of reach, I'd consider offering to put them in on my dime.
 
You could buy diamond coin op tables, lease them to him and keep all the money that goes into them. Only about 14K for 4 tournament used tables. This is why most rooms just can't swing the Diamonds.
 

Banks

Banned
You could buy diamond coin op tables, lease them to him and keep all the money that goes into them. Only about 14K for 4 tournament used tables. This is why most rooms just can't swing the Diamonds.

That's also why most rooms fail. If they aren't willing to put $14k into a business to make $20k, they're doomed to mediocrity at best. Who buys a restaurant and sits on the same equipment, hoping to make a better profit? Pool seems to think that's how you do things. Just keep recovering the same old tables and hope something changes.. that's what I see. Oh, and charge per-person, that way you can milk the 4 people that show up each night.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
What is the return on the cost of the new tables for the bar owner? Bars make money on booze sales, not the quarters they take out of bar boxes.

Wonder what John Taffer the Bar Rescue guy would say about your dream?

If the bars do not generate income from pool tables, why would the owner have something that takes up so much space in the first place?
 

nobcitypool

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
While the better players generally prefer Diamond to Valley, the reality is most bar room pool players don't fit into that category. I own a bar in Birmingham and we have 9 7' Valleys. We own 2, a local entertainment company owns 7 for a 50/50 split on revenue. Eventually, I plan to own them all.

At least in our case, the Valleys are in good condition and have Simonis cloth on them. When we bought the bar, my Son and I discussed Valley vs. Diamond. We both wanted Diamond. However, the business model for the bar is to attract multiple APA Teams 4 or 5 nights per week. There are very few Diamond bar boxes in Birmingham. At one local bar where there are Diamonds, the APA players ***** and moan about them. Pockets too tight, tables too fast, blah, blah. So we opted for the Valleys for pragmatic business reasons even though our personal preference would have been Diamonds. Like it or not, APA and many leagues are dominated by casual pool players, not serious passionate pool players.

There's no question, the Valleys play easier. Which means a game is finished faster. More games per hour. This is desirable when the players are paying by the game, not by the hour.

Who knows, perhaps as time goes on and if the game of pool continues to evolve to a bar based past tiem, more people will prefer the superior Diamond tables. If that becomes the case, I would switch in a heart beat. Until then, you have to go with what pays the bills.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
In our town/area of say 150k people, there are say 50 bars where APA is played out of. 10 years ago there were just a handful of them that were trying out the "new" fad and got a diamond table. Because of those few bars and the fact that the Diamond tables play great, I'm not sure if ANY of the other bars still have valley tables for league play. There has to be one somewhere but I can't think of it as I sit here. It's been an interesting transformation over the years to see teams migrate around to different bars until they settle in somewhere they like. Bottom line is: In our area, if you do not have a Diamond table, you will have about a 1% chance of keeping your pool teams. While it's true that some of the bars don't need pool teams, it sure does help on weekday evenings.:smile:

That sounds about the same as the town I play league in, except it has a population of less than 50k in the city. We only have Diamonds to play on in our league, I know there must be league play on Valleys but I do not see it. All the players want Diamonds so they will not play at a bar that has Valleys. The owners may not be getting rich from the league players but it is better to have at least 8 guys there for at least 3 hours than nobody at all in the place. The most money that nobody can spend is none.
 

leto1776

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I really can't blame owners for not wanting to lay the cash on Diamonds. That's a sizable chunk of cash that will take a while to see the ROI. With Valleys, they usually placed there by a vending company, for free, and the house makes a percentage on the table income. They get free tables with free maintenance, plus the added income from the tables keeping people in the bar longer.

Let me give two examples of how tight fisted bar owners can be.

Ex 1: my bar owner friend has had a table in his place for a year and half. After a year, it needed recovered. I strongly encouraged him to get Simonis. I told him it was likely to cost extra, but it's worth it. The table gets recovered, new cushions and leveled. No Simonis. Bar owner: "Hey Chuck, I asked the guy about the cloth you mentioned. He said it would cost extra. I said 'no, give me the free stuff.'" Hello, mcfly?

Ex 2: bar across the street from bar 1. Three valley tables in the main room, plus one in the lower room that's never opened. I play league out of this bar. At one point, we had three teams, now we're down to one. We constantly ask this guy to either upgrade to diamonds, or at least get us a used 9 footer for league. Will not budge. Now, this bar has gone down to being open only three nights a week, and if it weren't for league, he'd be down to just the weekends. Take away the tables, he'd hardly have anyone in there anymore.
 

one stroke

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What amazes me is that all of a sudden valleys are junk when there is probably a 10-1 or better ratio in bars and the APA has them in Vegas
You can dial a Valley in with fat rails rails and cloth to play real good and tighter

1
 

DAVE_M

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You are asking a business to cater to the customer.
If I walk into Taco Bell and tell them I want a burger, they are going to laugh.

Usually when the business doesn't have what you want, you go elsewhere...
 

u12armresl

One Pocket back cutter
Silver Member
Who are all the players? I know plenty of people that can't stand Diamonds, oh ya they are in the top 10 in the state on any table.

Everything is easier when you spend other peoples money. It's funny when people throw around Diamond, Simonis, Aramith. Like the guy who knew everything about pool, thought he was playing on Simonis, nope it was Champion, and those nice polished balls Aramith right? Nope Centennials.

Show me that your game is better playing with Diamonds.

I really can't blame owners for not wanting to lay the cash on Diamonds. That's a sizable chunk of cash that will take a while to see the ROI. With Valleys, they usually placed there by a vending company, for free, and the house makes a percentage on the table income. They get free tables with free maintenance, plus the added income from the tables keeping people in the bar longer.

Let me give two examples of how tight fisted bar owners can be.

Ex 1: my bar owner friend has had a table in his place for a year and half. After a year, it needed recovered. I strongly encouraged him to get Simonis. I told him it was likely to cost extra, but it's worth it. The table gets recovered, new cushions and leveled. No Simonis. Bar owner: "Hey Chuck, I asked the guy about the cloth you mentioned. He said it would cost extra. I said 'no, give me the free stuff.'" Hello, mcfly?

Ex 2: bar across the street from bar 1. Three valley tables in the main room, plus one in the lower room that's never opened. I play league out of this bar. At one point, we had three teams, now we're down to one. We constantly ask this guy to either upgrade to diamonds, or at least get us a used 9 footer for league. Will not budge. Now, this bar has gone down to being open only three nights a week, and if it weren't for league, he'd be down to just the weekends. Take away the tables, he'd hardly have anyone in there anymore.
 

u12armresl

One Pocket back cutter
Silver Member
Amen, and that auto leveling system, um well.

What amazes me is that all of a sudden valleys are junk when there is probably a 10-1 or better ratio in bars and the APA has them in Vegas
You can dial a Valley in with fat rails rails and cloth to play real good and tighter

1
 

Banks

Banned
You are asking a business to cater to the customer.
If I walk into Taco Bell and tell them I want a burger, they are going to laugh.

Usually when the business doesn't have what you want, you go elsewhere...

Which is why I don't ask a pool bar to supply basketball. If they're already making a half-assed attempt by having pool tables and league, that's where the bar is leaning. Taco Bell is a large, standardized chain. Those places make a policy of being able to walk into each one and knowing the menu will be pretty much identical, as will the product. This is more like a small restaurant. If you know there are thousands of vegetarians in the area, business sense would tell you to offer a few vegetarian options. I wouldn't have put myself on the line for thousands of dollars if I didn't think this through. I'm not sure what his area is like, so I can't say whether or not it would be ideal there, but I don't worry one bit about that direct withdraw coming out each month.

Next Tuesday, I'll try to remember to take a picture of the place while league is going on. I'm pretty sure last Tuesday was actually busier than Saturday. Saturday kinda sucked, but it's summertime in OR and that's what happens. On league nights, I've counted 30 or 40+ people in there for hours. That's pretty good for a weekday when you're surrounded by bars, most of which pour pretty strong.
 

KRJ

Support UKRAINE
Silver Member
What amazes me is that all of a sudden valleys are junk when there is probably a 10-1 or better ratio in bars and the APA has them in Vegas
You can dial a Valley in with fat rails rails and cloth to play real good and tighter

1

Who said they were junk... oh, that's right, nobody. And yeah, bars have them for one reason, they are inexpensive.

And APA has them in Vegas for the same reason, you don't think they are gonna cut into their HUGE profits to provide the best equipment for the biggest pool league in the US, do ya? Of course not.. APA can get buy with what they give you... most APA players don't care.

Heck, our ACS league has them in state... because the folks that own all of these tables are NOT going to suddenly buy 100 Diamond tables when they have Valleys that are already paid for, crappy rails and all ;)
 

leto1776

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Who are all the players? I know plenty of people that can't stand Diamonds, oh ya they are in the top 10 in the state on any table.

Everything is easier when you spend other peoples money. It's funny when people throw around Diamond, Simonis, Aramith. Like the guy who knew everything about pool, thought he was playing on Simonis, nope it was Champion, and those nice polished balls Aramith right? Nope Centennials.

Show me that your game is better playing with Diamonds.

The owner in example one plays on that table himself all the time, and at first seemed open to the idea. He also has leagues in his bar two nights of the week, and wants to attract more.

The owner in example 2 lost a team because of crappy overall conditions. Pool is brining in the customers way more than the DJs he's hiring, yet is a cheap sob who can't see what's right in front of him. I also run tournaments out of his place sometime, and I'm willing to bet that advertising better equipment would help attracting more people to the tournaments.

By the way, unlike of lot of the, shall we say, "picky" people on here, I don't mind Valleys. I do mind playing on ones in crappy condition that could easily be improved upon.
 
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Icon of Sin

I can't fold, I need gold. I re-up and reload...
Silver Member
Valley's are made very well and arent junk... they are just treated as such in most places and therefore look and play like shit... Bar owners normally buy the cheapest cloth and rails and put that on them themselves or with a shitty mechanic.

A well equipped Valley is pretty nice... especially if they extend the rails or shim the pockets... Hell the only thing bad about them is the shallow shelf that makes the pockets seem massive.
 

u12armresl

One Pocket back cutter
Silver Member
Right on, makes sense.

GL to ya.

The owner in example one plays on that table himself all the time, and at first seemed open to the idea. He also has leagues in his bar two nights of the week, and wants to attract more.

The owner in example 2 lost a team because of crappy overall conditions. Pool is brining in the customers way more than the DJs he's hiring, yet is a cheap sob who can't see what's right in front of him. I also run tournaments out of his place sometime, and I'm willing to bet that advertising better equipment would help attracting more people to the tournaments.

By the way, unlike of lot of the, shall we say, "picky" people on here, I don't mind Valleys. I do mind playing on ones in crappy condition that could easily be improved upon.
 
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