best player ever?

Don't be stupid. Just because he doesn't play to their level doesn't mean he can't win on occasion. Don't forget that the Cardiff tournament features very short races and that Davis is still a hard competitor who pretty much never chokes under pressure. That's hard to beat in a tournament. However, let him play someone like Efren or Johnny or Soquet all day long and see how he fares - race to 100 or something. The guy is one of my all time heroes but make no mistake, his pool game is nothing special. The last few writeups from the Mosconi Cups frequently cite him as the weakest link on the Euro team, and it's common knowledge that the only reason he's on it every year is because he's such a huge draw. Of course there's nothing wrong with that in my opinion but let's face it, he can't play to a world class level, and probably won't. He plays well, and some of the Mosconi cup players have told me that his game has improved a lot over the years, but it's still below world-class.

And just for the record, someone said that the 'only' thing missing from his game was a good break. Hate to break this to you but at 9-ball, that's about the single most important shot. If you can't break the balls like the world-class players then you can't beat them - simple as that.

amateur said:
If this were true, Steve would always lose every single 9ball match against top players!

Either we are all in denial and he really is a crappy pool player who only gets by using his famous name and sponsors, or your post wins the "stupidest" award.
Click to expand...
 
gromulan said:
Don't be stupid. Just because he doesn't play to their level doesn't mean he can't win on occasion. Don't forget that the Cardiff tournament features very short races and that Davis is still a hard competitor who pretty much never chokes under pressure. That's hard to beat in a tournament. However, let him play someone like Efren or Johnny or Soquet all day long and see how he fares - race to 100 or something. The guy is one of my all time heroes but make no mistake, his pool game is nothing special. The last few writeups from the Mosconi Cups frequently cite him as the weakest link on the Euro team, and it's common knowledge that the only reason he's on it every year is because he's such a huge draw. Of course there's nothing wrong with that in my opinion but let's face it, he can't play to a world class level, and probably won't. He plays well, and some of the Mosconi cup players have told me that his game has improved a lot over the years, but it's still below world-class.

And just for the record, someone said that the 'only' thing missing from his game was a good break. Hate to break this to you but at 9-ball, that's about the single most important shot. If you can't break the balls like the world-class players then you can't beat them - simple as that.
Click to expand...

Pat Fleming once did an analysis of all the matches on
accu-stats. And he found that the breaker won 52% of
the time. It would seem that the break isn't all it's
cracked up to be.

Bobby
 
Which was in what year?? Things have changed since then.

Bobby said:
Pat Fleming once did an analysis of all the matches on
accu-stats. And he found that the breaker won 52% of
the time. It would seem that the break isn't all it's
cracked up to be.

Bobby
Click to expand...
 
gromulan said:
Which was in what year?? Things have changed since then.
Click to expand...

What does it matter what year it was? As if players
couldn't break as hard then as they do now.

Actually it was only a few years ago, with all the
same players as now, Archer, Bustamante, Strickland
etc.

Bobby
 
gromulan said:
Can't agree with this totally. For the record though I am a snooker fanatic, but i also have played an watch an awful lot of pool. This is my opinion:

While it's true that the top snooker players have no reason to compete in the world of pool make no mistake - if they did it would take them a long, long time before they started winning. I have no doubt that talents on the level of Hendry, O'Sullivan or Davis would become very, very good players but to imagine them coming to the pool world and taking it over as Allison Fisher did in the women's game is absurd. The depth and quality of the men's game in comparison to the women's game is so excessive it makes them look like different sports. The situation is much like men's and women's tennis - in the women's game there are a handful of individuals who are consistent tournament threats - maybe 6 or 8 who can win any given tournament. In the men's game, however, there are scores of players who play to a very high standard. If you win the US Open in the men's game, you've probably won 10 or 11 matches, 7 or 8 of which were against players who had a legitimate shot to win the tournament. When Karen or Allison win a tournament it's only the last couple of matches that make a difference.

Another factor is knowledge. Though snooker players will respond with shock when I say this the simple fact is that experienced pool players have much, much, more knowledge about billiards in general than any exclusive snooker player, and this knowledge pays off in spades playing pool. Remember that in pool, distance does not save you, as it does in snooker, and remember too that in snooker, a straight shooter will defeat an experienced player nigh on every time, where in pool it's actually the reverse that holds true. If you don't think I'm correct, forget 9-ball, see how a snooker player would fare playing games like one pocket or three cushion billiards even against the likes of Strickland (who plays neither of those two games). Forgettaboutit.

Meanwhile, it's also incorrect to say that top players in the world of pool would not do well playing snooker. Efren, for example, has several centruy breaks playing snooker, and once won a gambling sessions against Kirk Stevens (former world #4). I can promise you that players such as Strickland, Reyes, Bustamate, Archer and the like, would be serious threats in the world of snooker - if that was the game that they played, just as Hendry, Davis, O'Sullivan and White would be serious threats in pool - if that was the game they played. The problem of course is that they don't.

Sadly the truth is that cuesports have no level playing field when it comes to comparing players in the different games. Seeing what Hendry can do against Reyes, or what Archer can do against O'Sullivan (or Davis against Blomdhal to throw another interesting name into the mix) on LEVEL terms, will never happen. The games, I'm sorry to say, are just too different, as are the skills necessary to take the players to the top. The best we'll ever be able to do is wonder.
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I guess this post says it all. Thanks, Gromulan. Any one of the top pool and snooker players, if they practiced hard enough and competed regularly, would do well in any cue sport. They have the fundamentals down pat and the natural ability is there. It would be interesting if someone sponsored a "Unification Tournament" so we can see who really is the best cue artist. Maybe like the DCC plus a snooker match. What do you guys think?
 
gromulan said:
Actually, if I remember correctly, Alex played in the last Canadian snooker championships and fared quite well, beating Kirk among others. I do know that Thorburn eventually beat him but I know that he finished quite deep in the tournament, though I can't say where.
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True he did match up pretty good even last years invitational snooker tournament where he had the first century. But if he were to play the Europeans i don't think he will be that much of a threat to them. But then again he's only been playing snooker for a couple of years...imagine if he dedicated himself to it.
 
Hey guys. Was just over the BD forum and one interesting thread mentions Efren being in the Top Ten shots of ESPN. One post even had a link to the ESPN site so we can encourage them to cover more pool.

"Please click here, and contact espn and give them a high five for putting some pool on the top 10!!!

Email Comments to ESPN here!!!

<Somebody should make sure this link gets posted on azbilliards and any other pool forums. thanks> "

Just did what was suggested but I don't think I got the link right. Sorry. Check it out in the BD forum.....
 
Actually, it was quite some time ago - about 10 years if memory serves, and before breaking from the side rail had caught on completely. I believe the actual percentage was that the breaker LOSES 52% of the games, so go figure, and that the only players who won more than 50% of games on their break were the three biggest breaks on the tour at the time - Archer, Bustamante and Strickland.

The year matters because though lots of players had big breaks then, I think more top players have big breaks now. The general standard of the game is improving steadily, as are all sports.

That being said, your point is valid for tournament play, but for playing in an all-day session as I proposed, the break and quality thereof would come into play far more and far more often. When my mistakes costs me one game, and my opponents mistakes cost them 2 or 3 or 4, I'm probably going to win.

Bobby said:
What does it matter what year it was? As if players
couldn't break as hard then as they do now.

Actually it was only a few years ago, with all the
same players as now, Archer, Bustamante, Strickland
etc.

Bobby
Click to expand...
 
I've heard a lot of commentators say that if there's one weakness to Efren's game, it's his break. He certainly does have a weaker break compared to others like Bustamante. And yet he still wins a lot of his games.
Of course, it might be argued that if he had a stronger break, he'd win even more games!
 
I think this quote from 'Champagne' Edwin Kelly, "one of the few players in the game who can claim titles in four different games ( 9-ball, One Pocket, Straight Pool and 3-Cushion) ... over four different decades" and BCA Hall of Famer can finally settle this issue of Greatest Player Ever:

"Efren is the best player in the world today. He might be the best of all time. Efren has more knowledge of all games than anyone I have ever seen. All those kids from the philippines can play...."

Need i saw more? Well, how about Johnny Archer's opinion?

"..., over all player, I think the best is Efren Reyes. That is who I have played against and I think is the best considering all aspects of the game. You're talking about one pocket, you're talking about banking, you're talking about safeties, you're talking about kicking, you're talking pocketing balls, whatever. The greatest nine ball player, cause thats the game we really play, it could be a number of players. It could be Buddy Hall, it could be Earl Strickland. You know, everybody gets hot. I guess it could be myself. But I think the greatest all around knowledgable player that has played all games that I have seen would have to be Efren."

(Both quotes taken from the Interviews section of the AZ Billiards website)
 
Renegade said:
I've heard a lot of commentators say that if there's one weakness to Efren's game, it's his break. He certainly does have a weaker break compared to others like Bustamante. And yet he still wins a lot of his games.
Of course, it might be argued that if he had a stronger break, he'd win even more games!
Click to expand...
Once at Hard Times, Efren offered any of the top pros the 7-ball if Bustamante broke for him. There were world champs and US Open champs there.
Guess how many stood up. None.
 
Joseph Cues said:
Once at Hard Times, Efren offered any of the top pros the 7-ball if Bustamante broke for him. There were world champs and US Open champs there.
Guess how many stood up. None.
Click to expand...

Best all-around? You'd have to give it to Efren. For the cash? Efren again-it's a no-brainer. But the best 9-ball TOURNEY player? Hmmm...tricky. Earl is right up there with US Open and World titles. I haven't seen Wimpy nor Don Willis so I can't comment. Give Buddy 10-20 years and he might get there with Efren in 9-ball. But as far as all-around for the cheese, you'd go broke betting against Efren.
 
Joseph Cues said:
Once at Hard Times, Efren offered any of the top pros the 7-ball if Bustamante broke for him. There were world champs and US Open champs there.
Guess how many stood up. None.
Click to expand...
I guess nobody's that stupid! haha

That's an interesting format for a tournament, though. Tag-team pool!
 
Say, Efren's been very quiet for some time now. Haven't heard any new news about him. What's he up to?
 
Renegade said:
Say, Efren's been very quiet for some time now. Haven't heard any new news about him. What's he up to?
Click to expand...
He's coming for a the US Open.
There will also be a one day one pocket tournament at Shooters in Riverside in honor of Efren.
909-785-9588 is Shooters number.
 
For those people who said Efren would get destroyed playing snooker against the snooker players- I've seen Jose Parica FIRE balls in on a 12x6 snooker table with pockets SO TIGHT THEY BARELY FIT 1 SNOOKER BALL. I saw him fire balls in and RUN OUT, like he was shooting 9-ball. If Parica can do that, Efren sure as hell can.

Secondly, I myself am not an old-timer, but MANY old-timers I have spoken to, who were around in the Mosconi days, say those past champions did not play as well as the pros of today. They tell me they didn't have the powerful strokes and breaks that the players of today have. In all honesty, if they are cinching balls in playing only straight pool, that doesn't surprise me.

My list of top 10 best players ever:

1.Efren Reyes
2.Mark Tadd
3.Jose Parica
4.Mike Sigel
5.Johnny Archer
6.Earl Strickland
7.Nick Varner
8.Buddy Hall
9.Alex Pagulayan
10.Fong Pang Chao
 
Bobby said:
Pat Fleming once did an analysis of all the matches on
accu-stats. And he found that the breaker won 52% of
the time. It would seem that the break isn't all it's
cracked up to be.

Bobby
Click to expand...

That's nonsense. What determines a winning percentage is how well the table in particular is breaking. When guys are running 5 and 6 packs, how does Pat Flemming's percentage figure in? Sinking a ball and getting position on the lowest numbered ball is not the only advantage from the break. Another huge advantage is having control of the table. If you've got no shot, play a good safe, or push out to something you might fire in, but your opponent might not be the favorite to make. That's pretty ideal, but it's another advantage.
 
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