BHE revisited

[VIProfessor]

Forgot the second part.

I'm not using a crooked stroke. However you did catch me in one thing I was avoiding and that is whether I am actually using BHE. Must I wait till I'm down on the shot and then move my back hand to call it BHE. If so then I don't use it. When I use it, it is all done standing up and I go down in alignment with where my stick would end up after moving the back hand.

Now we're talking the same language! As I understand it, that is NOT BHE. What I hear people talking about, and what I react somewhat negatively to, is getting down on the shot on one line of aim based on center ball, and then pivoting the back hand (and adjusting the length of the bridge) so that the tip goes to the desired point on the cue ball. Supposedly, based on the force and the length of the bridge, this also compensates for the deflection of the cue ball. If this is an inaccurate or poorly communicated description of the process, I welcome any corrections. At any rate, this process of getting down on one line and then adjusting either the rear or front hand to get the proper english and aiming line is what I take issue with. To my mind, it does not lend itself to sound fundamentals.

Maybe we disagree much less then we think we do!

 

[seymore15074]

This might not be directly related to BHE, I use parallel english, but here are my concerns:

It seems to me as if too many people think about WAY too many things when they are shooting. I'm am not kidding, I do not think of any of the things people keep bringing up... Here's a list of things that have no bearing whatsoever on my game: squirt, deflection, throw, etc... None of this needs to be "manually" taken into account. I think "make this ball" and it happens. If you do not shoot like this, you are limiting yourself. It's that simple.

 

[Cornerman]

Parallel can't work because of deflection!! Hmm! So what happens when you compensate for deflection by adjusting your aiming point BEFORE you get down on the shot (like I've been doing for years)?

If you compensate before you get down on the shot, then that is no longer parallel english. It may not be backhand english, but the compensation should be about the same.

I think CaptainJR has an affinity for BHE because it really is the simplest way to get some kind of idea of the compensation necessary for squirt, IMO. Especially for beginners, which I believe is his main point. It's not the only way, but I can't think of anything that's more easily understood.

Fred

 

[Aaron_S]

I just can't get myself to say that it is OK to call it parallel, if the line that it is parallel to is not the line that will make the shot without english.

Gotcha. I think it is more a matter of semantics than anything, then. When I think of parallel english, I think of it as being parallel to the line of aim, not parallel to the line that would pocket the ball without english. The kind of parallel you're speaking of would only work in cases where the three main factors (deflection, spin-induced cb curve, and spin-induced ob throw) cancelled each other out. That would be the case on some shots, but on many it would not.

BTW, good luck with quitting smoking. It's a pain, but well worth it. Hang in there.

Aaron

 

[CaptainJR]

Now we're talking the same language! As I understand it, that is NOT BHE. What I hear people talking about, and what I react somewhat negatively to, is getting down on the shot on one line of aim based on center ball, and then pivoting the back hand (and adjusting the length of the bridge) so that the tip goes to the desired point on the cue ball. Supposedly, based on the force and the length of the bridge, this also compensates for the deflection of the cue ball. If this is an inaccurate or poorly communicated description of the process, I welcome any corrections. At any rate, this process of getting down on one line and then adjusting either the rear or front hand to get the proper english and aiming line is what I take issue with. To my mind, it does not lend itself to sound fundamentals.

Maybe we disagree much less then we think we do!

I think you are right. We probably are closer than we think. I was using the term BHE, but remember I also mentioned front hand english and swooping. There is also front and back hand at the same time english. But when I refer to them it is nothing I do after I get down on the shot.

I was just using these terms because people are familiar with them. And it seemed an easy way to explain things.

What I am saying regardless of how you put spin on the cue ball, parallel english doesn't work. If you line up to make the ball with center tip position, then move the stick in a parallel manner to put spin on the ball, you will miss the shot.

Incidentally people that teach parallel are telling them to do this after they are down also.

 

[Aaron_S]

If you compensate before you get down on the shot, then that is no longer parallel english. It may not be backhand english, but the compensation should be about the same.

Hi Fred. I think what we're dealing with here are two different definitions of parallel. I have always though of parallel as meaning "parallel to the line of aim", but CaptainJR just pointed out that his definition of parallel is "parallel to the line that would pocket the ball without english". Is it possible that you and VIP are also assigning different meanings to the word?

Aaron

 

[seymore15074]

Hi Fred. I think what we're dealing with here are two different definitions of parallel. I have always though of parallel as meaning "parallel to the line of aim", but CaptainJR just pointed out that his definition of parallel is "parallel to the line that would pocket the ball without english". Is it possible that you and VIP are also assigning different meanings to the word?

Aaron

I'm with you on that Aaron. Parallel in my book is parallel to the line of aim.

 

[CaptainJR]

If you compensate before you get down on the shot, then that is no longer parallel english. It may not be backhand english, but the compensation should be about the same.

I think CaptainJR has an affinity for BHE because it really is the simplest way to get some kind of idea of the compensation necessary for squirt, IMO. Especially for beginners, which I believe is his main point. It's not the only way, but I can't think of anything that's more easily understood.

Fred

Thank you Fred
And that was the main thing to me. There are all kinds of thought processes to put spin on a cue ball that an advanced player can use and be affective with. Heck I can remember making ridiculous home made shots. Shots that only could be described as a 'back hand swooping throw with moving bridge shot'.

The point is BHE is a simple way to introduce english, without having to get to far into deflection or without telling them that parallel works when it doesn't unless you use some other kind of compensation.

 

[VIProfessor]

Cornerman and CaptainJR,

Yup, we're all on the same page! Of course, the compensated line can't be absolutely parallel to a centerball line simply because you can't move the cueball. I just believe, like the Cap, that the adjustments should be made before you get down on the shot so that your body will be in alignment and so that you don't caluculate when you are down on the shot, you just execute.

I also have to point out to seymore that what we're doing on this forum, or in any form of verbal communication, is using conscious thoughts and words to describe a process that takes place without conscious thought or verbalization. I guarantee you that practically no one who plays the game reasonably well is thinking through stuff like this when they're getting ready to shoot. You're absolutely right, nobody can really play pool while the mind is cluttered with all kinds of conscious calculations and adjustment.

A player consciously calculates and adjusts when he is learning to compensate for deflection and throw, which is what training and drills are for. When one is in the performance mode, however, you have to just let the game flow! Through repetition and observation, the subconscious mind has already gathered the information needed to automatically make whatever adjustments are needed. Trust it!

 

[CaptainJR]

Hi Fred. I think what we're dealing with here are two different definitions of parallel. I have always though of parallel as meaning "parallel to the line of aim", but CaptainJR just pointed out that his definition of parallel is "parallel to the line that would pocket the ball without english". Is it possible that you and VIP are also assigning different meanings to the word?

Aaron

I know that you directed this to Fred but the problem I see with this is the lack of definition of "line of aim". The line that pockets the ball without english has some backbone. A 'line of aim' with no references other than judgment doesn't sound like much to base another parallel line on.

 

[Cornerman]

Hi Fred. I think what we're dealing with here are two different definitions of parallel. I have always though of parallel as meaning "parallel to the line of aim", but CaptainJR just pointed out that his definition of parallel is "parallel to the line that would pocket the ball without english". Is it possible that you and VIP are also assigning different meanings to the word?

Aaron

So to muck it all up, when people use the normal method known as backhand english, they absolutely are shooting parallel to their line of aim. If you don't understand this, then you're not talking about backhand english. Those who don't shoot parallel to their line of aim are using something else, normally known in New York as "swooping into the english." That isn't and has never been backhand english.

I'm going to say that "Parallel English" was defined a long time before the internet was ever invented. And it's the definition Bob Jewett uses, and CaptainJR is using the same definition as well. It was coined before people were talking about squirt because frankly, people didn't realize squirt existed.

Fred

 

[Aaron_S]

So to muck it all up, when people use the normal method known as backhand english, they absolutely are shooting parallel to their line of aim

Ok, I must not be thinking about it the right way (no surprise), and I'm apparently not using the correct lingo either (again, no surprise), so I'll just draw a verbal picture to try to find out what it is I'm missing.

If I walk up to a shot, line up as if I'm going to shoot it without english, get down and set up as if I'm going to shoot it without english, and then pivot my cue in one direction or the other by moving my back hand in or out, how is my cue parallel to anything at this point? Forgive my stupidity, but isn't my cue now pointing in some random direction that can only be defined in terms of how much it is skewed from the original line, which is completely dependent on how much english I'm applying to the cb?

Aaron (promises to go back into his cave and bang some rocks together for a while after this post)

 

[Cornerman]

Ok, I must not be thinking about it the right way (no surprise), and I'm apparently not using the correct lingo either (again, no surprise), so I'll just draw a verbal picture to try to find out what it is I'm missing.

If I walk up to a shot, line up as if I'm going to shoot it without english, get down and set up as if I'm going to shoot it without english, and then pivot my cue in one direction or the other by moving my back hand in or out, how is my cue parallel to anything at this point? Forgive my stupidity, but isn't my cue now pointing in some random direction that can only be defined in terms of how much it is skewed from the original line, which is completely dependent on how much english I'm applying to the cb?

In your previous posts with your semantic definition of parallel english, what were you parallel to? Your line of aim, right?

With backhand english, you dont' swoop your stroke. You pivot first. That's your new line of aim. You stroke down that line of aim. That's exactly same as what you were previously describing as parallel to your aim. No swooping. No cross stroking. You stroke straight along the NEW LINE OF AIM, determined by backhand english. Backhand english is not a stroke tool. It is not a stroke.

One more way. What direction would you have to be pointing if you were to use your own method to make a shot with heavy spin? Whatever method you use, you and I will be pointing exactly the same direction, and we both will stroke directly down that new direction. How can that not be the same???

Fred

 

[Cornerman]

Maybe you guys need to revisite Colin Colenso's video on backhand english.

http://www.cue-tv.com/blog/InstructionalVideos

Scroll down about halfway.

There you can see whether he adjusts his body after getting the new line of aim. You can also clearly see him shooting straight down the new line of aim.

Fred

 

[Aaron_S]

In your previous posts with your semantic definition of parallel english, what were you parallel to? Your line of aim, right?

Yes, and my cue will also be in line with my body, according to how I set up for the shot.

With backhand english, you dont' swoop your stroke. You pivot first. That's your new line of aim. You stroke down that line of aim.

I'm still with you, but isn't your new line of aim defined exclusively by how much english you're applying to the cb? And isn't it also heavily skewed against the actual path that you want the cb to take? For instance, if you aim-and-pivot for left-hand spin, won't the cb follow a path that's well right of where your cue is actually aiming?

One more way. What direction would you have to be pointing if you were to use your own method to make a shot with heavy spin?

With my own method (I don't know what the hell it's called anymore), I would, while standing, determine where the ob needs to be struck to go in the pocket (accounting for spin-induced throw). I would then make a determination as to how much I need to deviate from that line in order to compensate for spin-induced curve and squirt. Once I find that line, I set up for the shot with my entire body on that line and with my cue parallel to that line, but shifted to the left or right depending on which english I'm applying. I will then draw my cue straight back (as straight as I can manage, anyway), and send it straight forward into the cb.

Whatever method you use, you and I will be pointing exactly the same direction

If so, then you are applying BHE in a manner in which I have never seen it applied. This must be the case since you said in another thread that, using your method, you can find your new line, stand up, and reset yourself on the new line if you wanted to. I have never seen BHE used that way, but that method would have to be far superior to the method in which I have always seen BHE applied, since you would be able to use proper body-alignment and a stroke that is consistent with your body alignment. This is a technique I'm not familiar with, but I would like to see an example sometime.

Aaron

 

[Cornerman]

I'm still with you, but isn't your new line of aim defined exclusively by how much english you're applying to the cb?

Of course. That's consistent with the current understanding of squirt. The more english, the more the squirt. Understand that I never said to use backhand english exclusively on all shots. I've specifically talking about squirt-heavy shots.

And isn't it also heavily skewed against the actual path that you want the cb to take? For instance, if you aim-and-pivot for left-hand spin, won't the cb follow a path that's well right of where your cue is actually aiming?

Ummm.... that's where everyone has to aim to make the same shot. That's what squirt does. You will always be aiming and stroking on a line different than where the cueball will go.

With my own method (I don't know what the hell it's called anymore), I would, while standing, determine where the ob needs to be struck to go in the pocket (accounting for spin-induced throw). I would then make a determination as to how much I need to deviate from that line in order to compensate for spin-induced curve and squirt.

What I've bold-face above, that's your method. Insert "I use backhand english to make a determiniation how much I need to deviate from that line...."

On shots that you must include spin-induced curve, you can still use backhand english, but with the added curve compensation.

Once I find that line, I set up for the shot with my entire body on that line and with my cue parallel to that line, but shifted to the left or right depending on which english I'm applying. I will then draw my cue straight back (as straight as I can manage, anyway), and send it straight forward into the cb.

There's no reason to think that you can't do the same with backhand english. You absolutely draw the cueball straight back, as straight as you can manage, and send it straight forward in the cb.

Check out at the 2:00 minute mark. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkAHVo0BGwU I hit the ball with inside english. It's out of focus, but you can see when I pivot, and then take my warm up strokes and shoot normally.

It's exactly the same thing. You're using a method that in the end, you will be aiming somewhere else other than where cueball is travelling. So am I. Whatever the method, you and I will be aiming the same direction. There's no reason why we wouldn't be. But your method comes from feel and experience. My method comes from an analytical starting point based on the parameter of my cue stick. Which one is the better teaching method if they produce the same results?

Please view Colin Colenso's video.

My method is not far superior. It's the same as any other true practitioner of backhand english. I just think that on these boards, there's overall confusion in terms. Colin set it straight and a lot of "a ha!!!" were exclaimed when he introduced it. BTW, years ago, IIRC, Colin didn't exactly think BHE was a good tool either.

Fred

 

[Aaron_S]

Ummm.... that's where everyone has to aim to make the same shot. That's what squirt does. You will always be aiming and stroking on a line different than where the cueball will go.

Yeah, but I'm talking about heavily skewed. For instance, if you want to use extreme left-hand spin while pocketing a ball that's 6' away, where will your cue be pointing? Won't it be pointing at a spot that's several inches left of the object ball?

 

[Cornerman]

Yeah, but I'm talking about heavily skewed. For instance, if you want to use extreme left-hand spin while pocketing a ball that's 6' away, where will your cue be pointing? Won't it be pointing at a spot that's several inches left of the object ball?

Where will it be pointing if you were aiming it with your method? If you're talking about a shot speed that minimizes swerve, then you and I will be pointing exactly the same direction if you expect to make the shot. Off the ball is certainly a possibility, especially with outside english hit at firm speed.

Watch the videos, please.

Here's a shot. Very firm shot, with outside english. Ghost ball contact is at cueball A. Aim line/stroke line is at (or closer to) cueball B. Whether you use backhand english, or feel the aim, provided you have a normal squirt cue. The aim is off the ball.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2HISj3IGCK3PTAc2QGvV2RFhU2cISj2celt3kTAc2kHEW5kAKm5kIrp5kQSU5kaoS3karT1uClN@

Fred

 

[Aaron_S]

Where will it be pointing if you were aiming it with your method? If you're talking about a shot speed that minimizes swerve, then you and I will be pointing exactly the same direction if you expect to make the shot. Off the ball is certainly a possibility, especially with outside english hit at firm speed.

Watch the videos, please.

Here's a shot. Very firm shot, with outside english. Ghost ball contact is at cueball A. Aim line/stroke line is at (or closer to) cueball B. Whether you use backhand english, or feel the aim, provided you have a normal squirt cue. The aim is off the ball.

http://CueTable.com/P/?@2HISj3IGCK3PTAc2QGvV2RFhU2cISj2celt3kTAc2kHEW5kAKm5kIrp5kQSU5kaoS3karT1uClN@

Fred

Unfortunately I can't watch the videos right now. Something is wrong with my browser here. I will have to watch them tonight when I get home.

Please indulge me for one more quick question, though. How much squirt would you anticipate experiencing over an 8' span? For instance, if you set the cb up in the center of the table, about a foot from the head rail, aim at the center diamond on the foot rail, and use a very firm stroke with a healthy dose of side spin, how far would you expect the cb to hit from the diamond?

 

[CaptainJR]

Unfortunately I can't watch the videos right now. Something is wrong with my browser here. I will have to watch them tonight when I get home.

Please indulge me for one more quick question, though. How much squirt would you anticipate experiencing over an 8' span? For instance, if you set the cb up in the center of the table, about a foot from the head rail, aim at the center diamond on the foot rail, and use a very firm stroke with a healthy dose of side spin, how far would you expect the cb to hit from the diamond?

Oh my, I don't know if you are going to like this answer. If you use parallel it would probably hit at least a ball and a half away. In other words if there was a ball there you would miss it completely. If you use BHE you would at least hit the ball.