body position when lining up the shot ...square vs angled

pw98

Registered
when you are behind the shot line before you step in
commonly i have read be square or perpendicular to the shot line
the move your right foot onto the shot line (for righties) and step into the shot with your left foot into your stance
snooker players hips are are square to the table so for them
this approach of starting square and staying square makes sense
pool players typically have their hips more angled to the shot line in their stance
so is it wrong to stand behind the shot more in the way you are when in your stance
ie shoulder and hips more angled than square??
your thoughts appreciated
thanks in advance

We talked about sightright in our PM so here is what I was going to say.

Set up this experiment. Put a ball on the second diamond on the long rail about an inch from the rail on the footside of the table. Now put the cueball on the spot on the headside of the table. Now lay a spare cue down on the table and put its tip at the center of the ghostball of where you would aim to make the shot. Now place a cueball at the exact center of the butt of the cue.

So now go through your normal PSR and get down on the shot. When its time to shoot I want you to perform your stroke in slow motion but follow through above the cueball and follow through far. Now look at where the end of the cue that is past the cueball is in relation to the cue on the table. Is it perfectly overlapping?

For me the cue would not be perfectly overlapping. It would be aiming to miss the ghost ball by a quite a large margin. This is a shot I could make but I would have to warm up every single day on this shot and I would hit it into the rail on the first few attempts for the day then become fairly consistent on it. However, on some days I couldn't hit it consistently at all.

What was happening was my brain knew subconciously that I wasnt lined correctly and would move the cue onto the correct line during the forward stroke. And of course it took my brain a few shots at it each day to calibrate the timing needed for this. Obviously this is bad and it created many inconsistencies.

Now here comes sightright. When I perform the sightright step even though there is a little bouncing (or what bbb would call zigzagging) of the shot picture I still get lined up much closer to dead straight on the line to the ghostball (in this case the spare cue) than I would if I went down with my conventional drop when using sightright.

For me at least the results of this experiment with a conventional drop vs sightright is night and day. At the end of my long experimental follow through the cue tip is probably half an inch off the shot line with the conventional alignment. With sightright alignment it is probably off the line by less than half a cm. To me this is proof that for me at least the sightright alignment method is superior and I will stick with using it.

And as I stated in another thread the results for me have been fabulous. I can now play on a 4 1/8th inch 9 foot diamond and missing shots that a good player is expected to make is not the issue that holds me back any longer.

I will admit that I have also improved my stroke but I will say that without getting the cue to be properly on the shotline (which only sightright was successful at accomplishing) I could have worked on my stroke forever and never would have gotten good results.

The reason I never could have gotten good results with major stroke work was I was cueing across the shotline and relying on hand eye coordination to fix my terrible alignment. Hence some days when my hand eye coordination was good I could shoot consistently but on days when it was off it was not pretty.

Now even on bad days when I get poor sleep I can still pocket balls almost just as good as days when I've slept well and my hand eye coordination is good. Of course on these bad days I still have really poor cueball control but at least I can pocket balls consistently.

And for those people who say I just needed instruction to fix this flaw I have been to a PBIA master instructor (who will remain anonymous and it was not Randy or Scott Lee) and he pointed out this flaw and said I was moving my muscle and steering the cue. His solution was for me to "stop moving that muscle." I tried and tried and couldn't stop moving that muscle my brain just wanted to do it and eventually I gave up and worked on other things. At that point I didn't know if the instructor was right or wrong about moving the muscle and steering the tip but I did know from videos that a lot of the time my stroke did not look straight and I had no clue how to fix it.

Now along comes sightright and after playing around with it for a relatively short time I was able to diagnose and fix the problem.

I will admit every day before I start playing I warm up by placing the sightright on the table and practice the sightright step into it and take a stroke without a single practice stroke (I dont take any practice strokes when playing BTW, just two small feathers and shoot, I always felt practice strokes gave more time for pressure to build up during tough situations and that my delivery was adversely affected because of it.) for each time I line up on the ball. I do this for about 2 to 3 minutes. The first few sightright step attempts I normally dont make it onto the shot line perfectly but after a couple tries I'm pretty much dead on the line and my stroke looks really straight.

Before sightright I had a whole routine of shots I had to shoot which were designed to help dial in the hand eye coordination for the day needed to fix the tip steer flaw. This took about 25 minutes to run through. Without doing this whole routine my odds of a good shoot day greatly diminished.

With sightright I warm up for about 5 minutes. About 2-3 minutes practicing lineing up on the sightright and then another 2-3 minutes hitting straight in shots. After this I am warmed up and my results are still much better than that I would get from 25 minutes of messing around with those benchmark shots which I always missed horribly on the first try or two.


Now if sightright could only make me stay asleep...
 
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bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
i feel like you duped me into putting this public
so you could sing the praises of sight right and tell us how wonderful you play now
p.s
i did your experiment and my cue is virtually overlapping the other cue
do i get a prize? 😂
by the way my pockets are 4.25 and i pocket balls fine

new pocket size.jpg
 

pw98

Registered
i had a discussion with pw98 regarding sightright
and there advocacy of starting square to the shot
and i mentioned that i put my head/vision center on the shotline but stand angled
when i am behind the shot lining up before stepping in
for the stepping in is easier starting angled than starting square for me
it was in another thread that was not devoted to sightright
so when i sent him a pm to discuss it he asked i put my pm public so he could answer publicly so others can benefit from his answer
since this old thread was/is related to that issue
i am putting my pm here so pw98 can answer
so here is my pm to pw98
..........................
i am happy it has helped you.
i think you need to give credit which you do that other peices in the jigsaw puzzle were already in place for this piece to fit well
the premise of sight right (i will call it SR for short from now on)
is the old teaching of put your foot on the shot line caused your head to be off the shot line so you were seeing "across " the shot line.
SR wants your vision center to be on the shot line from the standing position
i have proved i can have my head on the shot line in line with my vision center even tho my shoulders are not perpendicular to the shot line.
i can pretty much maintain that head position as i come STRAIGHT DOWN along the line
i only need to step forward with my left foot
there is minimal zigzagging of my head in relation to the vision center aim line as i had when trying to bring my right foot to the shot line and then move my left foot when i started out square.......ie the shot line near my belly button .........so right leg would be right of the shot line
i did get some usefull feed back regarding my alignment with SR
so i wouldnt say it was a complete waste of money
i was very disappointed that there customer service after purchase was so poor

Definitely other pieces were needed for sightright to work. As you are implying there were many pieces already assembled and I just needed to find the connecting piece which in my case was sightright.

Try my experiment I outlined in another post. The results of it will show if you are in fact getting the cue on the shot line. In my case I was getting my vision center dead on the shotline but the cue was off by a tiny bit (probably about a degree or so). When you are down in your stance you can't really see that it is off: everything looks fine. However, when you shoot the results are terrible if you are off the slightest bit.

So basically with sightright I am trading off a little inaccuracy in my vision center placement for a huge gain in accuracy in my cue placement. For me the tradeoff is worth it. For others the trade-off might not be beneficial because for example they already place the cue on the shot line well and maybe getting their vision center over the shotline is the problem for them.

Everything in this game goes its a tradeoff. And since everyone has different strengths and weaknesses it might work for some people and not for others.

For me it works wonders and I wish I had it when I first started playing seriously about 25 years ago. I definitely would have progressed much further in that period of time using it.
 

pw98

Registered
i feel like you duped me into putting this public
so you could sing the praises of sight right and tell us how wonderful you play now
p.s
i did your experiment and my cue is virtually overlapping the other cue
do i get a prize? 😂
by the way my pockets are 4.25 and i pocket balls fine

View attachment 689312

Well. If you are aligned with the stick just fine and you don't have problems pocketing balls then why did you want to use sightright in the first place? It's designed for people with these types of issues.

If anything you trolled me into these replies....

BTW pocketing balls on a 4.25" GC is not the same as 4.25" diamond. You have to cue and aim much better on the Diamond and my results on tables with shorter shelfs and 4.25" pockets did not improve as much as on the Diamond. Its not that I couldn't shoot at all before. I could shoot and I could get out even on a 4.25" Diamond my consistency at doing so just went up significantly due to not steering the tip anymore.

And as I said before I still had to work on my stroke once I learned how to get the cue on the line correctly. It still had and still has flaws. It was just much easier to isolate the flaws and fix them once the cue was on the line and one variable was finally held constant.

At one point in my development prior to using sightright I would always be holding the cue out to the side and stepping onto where I was holding the cue. This helped a ton with my perception issue and I shot better this way. The problem was it did not work on tight tables at all. If the pockets were less than 4.5" I actually shot worse than not doing it at all. People would always ask me WTF I was doing and I didn't totally understand it myself. Now I understand what I was doing was a very crude version of sightright. Eventually because I knew there was no way what I was doing was consistent I stopped doing this and people forgot about it.

Sorry if I sound like a sightright infomercial salesman. I am not trying to. I just know there are others out there like me me with screwy perception issues that this will help. And I thank shuddy for his post bringing it to my attention because without it I never would have found it and would still be very frustrated with random misses and knowing that something is wrong but not being able to isolate it.

Not to be an a** but I can see why the sightright people didn't want to work with you. You want to use their product to fix a flaw you know you have but you insist that you are doing everything correctly already. Maybe your flaw in fact elsewhere and you are barking up the wrong tree.

To get back to the original topic of this thread. IMHO it doesnt matter how you stand as long as you get your vision center and the cue on the shot line and dont drop your elbow prematurely and dont twist your wrist. How you actually stand IMHO is more of a function of where your vision center is and the layout of your body and your age. There is no optimal one size fits all answer.

So I guess it was my stroke causing the misses afterall. But it was also a perception issue causing my stroke to be bad. So I was half right anyways when I would always say my aim was off when people said it was my stroke. And on top of that my aim was faulty due to bad throw correction but that was hard to fix because of the randomness of the stroking.

So basically everything is inner related and one large flaw can cause many smaller flaws to not be fixable. If you are able to fix that one large flaw then the other flaws are isolatable and now fixable. We see issues similar to this all the time with bugs in software development. I think this is what you were alluding to with the jigsaw puzzle analogy.

BTW I have seen other benefits from the sightright material (particuarlly the masterclasses which I got to see for free because of an apparently glitch in their website which has now been fixed) that got me thinking and finding major improvements in my game but I wont go into them here because I am not a salesman for sightright and not paid to hawk their product. If I did disclose this stuff it probably wouldn't be good for their bottom line either because I am very good at reverse engineering details when purposely given vague information, whether it be software, pool, or other technical topics. I have already given away all the details I have reverse engineered about their product which have come to the top of my head regarding their alignment system. If I recall more or someone asks the right questions I will post more information.

If anything I am harming their business by speaking about sightright here in detail because they want you to pay 3k$ for one on one ONLINE instruction and I have probably given away many of the techniques and details you would learn during this instruction to diagnose and optimize your usage of sightright in these posts. Sure they might sell a few more units for 100$ a pop because of me praising it, but if the details of how it works are out in public they wont sell the lessons which are a big reason why they leave out many details and probably why they didn't want to answer your questions.
 
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bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
in the other thread i did not want it to be a sight right thread
that was the reason for my pm
if you have anything else to say
PM me

this is not a sightright endorsement thread
thank you
 

z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Definitely other pieces were needed for sightright to work. As you are implying there were many pieces already assembled and I just needed to find the connecting piece which in my case was sightright.

Try my experiment I outlined in another post. The results of it will show if you are in fact getting the cue on the shot line. In my case I was getting my vision center dead on the shotline but the cue was off by a tiny bit (probably about a degree or so). When you are down in your stance you can't really see that it is off: everything looks fine. However, when you shoot the results are terrible if you are off the slightest bit.

So basically with sightright I am trading off a little inaccuracy in my vision center placement for a huge gain in accuracy in my cue placement. For me the tradeoff is worth it. For others the trade-off might not be beneficial because for example they already place the cue on the shot line well and maybe getting their vision center over the shotline is the problem for them.

Everything in this game goes its a tradeoff. And since everyone has different strengths and weaknesses it might work for some people and not for others.

For me it works wonders and I wish I had it when I first started playing seriously about 25 years ago. I definitely would have progressed much further in that period of time using it.
"So basically with sightright I am trading off a little inaccuracy in my vision center placement for a huge gain in accuracy in my cue placement".

i don't know if i fully understand this but i'm think i'm doing something similar and have seen better results.
basically what i'm doing is instead of trying to get down on the shot with the cue perfectly placed on the exact same spot under my chin everytime, now i'm getting down on the shot in a more relaxed manner without focusing so much on the exact spot on my chin that the cue is going to touch and without any tension.
could it be that when i was focusing too much on my vision center placement, as i was getting down on the shot,i was taking the cue to my body and not the body to the cue which was pulling the cue offline?who knows.
and could it be now that i get down more relaxed,i am able to place the cue more accurately on the shotline?
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
"So basically with sightright I am trading off a little inaccuracy in my vision center placement for a huge gain in accuracy in my cue placement".

i don't know if i fully understand this but i'm think i'm doing something similar and have seen better results.
basically what i'm doing is instead of trying to get down on the shot with the cue perfectly placed on the exact same spot under my chin everytime, now i'm getting down on the shot in a more relaxed manner without focusing so much on the exact spot on my chin that the cue is going to touch and without any tension.
could it be that when i was focusing too much on my vision center placement, as i was getting down on the shot,i was taking the cue to my body and not the body to the cue which was pulling the cue offline?who knows.
and could it be now that i get down more relaxed,i am able to place the cue more accurately on the shotline?
maybe where you thought under your chin was not really your vision center spot and now you let nature find it for you?
i am not an instructor
jmho
icbw
 

pw98

Registered
"So basically with sightright I am trading off a little inaccuracy in my vision center placement for a huge gain in accuracy in my cue placement".

i don't know if i fully understand this but i'm think i'm doing something similar and have seen better results.
basically what i'm doing is instead of trying to get down on the shot with the cue perfectly placed on the exact same spot under my chin everytime, now i'm getting down on the shot in a more relaxed manner without focusing so much on the exact spot on my chin that the cue is going to touch and without any tension.
could it be that when i was focusing too much on my vision center placement, as i was getting down on the shot,i was taking the cue to my body and not the body to the cue which was pulling the cue offline?who knows.
and could it be now that i get down more relaxed,i am able to place the cue more accurately on the shotline?
It sounds like your reasoning might be correct as to why its happening. When you put all your concentration on one aspect there is no doubt that other aspects will be neglected.

Maybe its the same in my case that if i had stopped concentrating on putting my vision center on the shot so much and started concentrating more on the cue as well that I could have gotten better results without sightright.

Something that I left out which I should have said is that you probably can get similar results as sightright if you stand diagonally to the shot to help facilitate getting the eye and the arm closer together, this ws what geno teaches. In my case I would have to stand very diagonally on some shots. Even with a knee bend this is very uncomfortable to me as it twists my back. Previously my back as been injured from shooting this way (muscularly and structurally). Trying to avoid the twisting of the back might be another reason why I have trouble getting the cue on the line.

The thing with sightright is I can finally stand square and get the cue on the shotline without back twisting. In the past this seemed hopeless because the eye and the hand are in incompatible spots. Snooker players traditionally 'twist their hips' to get on the line this way. Well I tried this and had good results but I was in MAJOR pain after doing it for a few days so I had to stop.

When I use sightright I bend my knees as well to take strain off my back. With sightright the back pain is basically gone. I dont feel the strain in my back muscles that I would in my diagonal stance that made them feel like they were about to tear after playing for a long time. And I dont feel the structural damage feeling I would get if I was twisting my back to get on the shotline consistently with a square stance and traditional snooker methods.

However, even if I do the above experiment using my old way of going down the cue is still closer to the shot line with sightright. Maybe if I did the old way of going down and put more effort into the cue being on the line and less into the vision center my results would improve. I would try that but because of the back pain relief I get from a square stance I don't think I could go back regardless of the results.

Either way I think that its a sightright is a good product and I think geno's method are good as well. So if you have been playing a long time and there are a lot of shots that you always miss the exact same way every time even if you tried them 100 times in a row then it might really help to seek help from one or the other. With geno teaching a more diagonal stance and sightright advocating a square stance.

In my case the square stance of sightright has much better results and alleviates back pain.
 
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pw98

Registered
maybe where you thought under your chin was not really your vision center spot and now you let nature find it for you?
i am not an instructor
jmho
icbw
Honestly I doubt that is the case. I think it is more that he was concentrating on the vision center drop being perfect so much that he was significantly neglecting the cue. If one is perfect and the other is seriously off then you will see inconsistent results. However, if neither is perfect but both are only slightly off then the results will be more consistent than the prior. This is only true of course if the player does not have super human perception or hand eye coordination to fix the flaw subconciously.

Bustamante might be a good example of this. Maybe he lines up so funny because thats how he gets his vision center on the ball then he uses his super human hand eye coordination to fix the stick alignment as he strikes the ball. IDK but this is definitely a possibility. To me this makes a lot more sense than some of the other explainations I've heard of what he is doing from "that is how he learned so he is afraid to change it" to "he is using some super secret aiming system."

To me there has to be some reason he is doing it and it is probably based on the physical/visual layout of his body.
 
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z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It sounds like your reasoning might be correct as to why its happening. When you put all your concentration on one aspect there is no doubt that other aspects will be neglected.

Maybe its the same in my case that if i had stopped concentrating on putting my vision center on the shot so much and started concentrating more on the cue as well that I could have gotten better results without sightright.

Something that I left out which I should have said is that you probably can get similar results as sightright if you stand diagonally to the shot to help facilitate getting the eye and the arm closer together, this ws what geno teaches. In my case I would have to stand very diagonally on some shots. Even with a knee bend this is very uncomfortable to me as it twists my back. Previously my back as been injured from shooting this way (muscularly and structurally). Trying to avoid the twisting of the back might be another reason why I have trouble getting the cue on the line.

The thing with sightright is I can finally stand square and get the cue on the shotline without back twisting. In the past this seemed hopeless because the eye and the hand are in incompatible spots. Snooker players traditionally 'twist their hips' to get on the line this way. Well I tried this and had good results but I was in MAJOR pain after doing it for a few days so I had to stop.

When I use sightright I bend my knees as well to take strain off my back. With sightright the back pain is basically gone. I dont feel the strain in my back muscles that I would in my diagonal stance that made them feel like they were about to tear after playing for a long time. And I dont feel the structural damage feeling I would get if I was twisting my back to get on the shotline consistently with a square stance and traditional snooker methods.

However, even if I do the above experiment using my old way of going down the cue is still closer to the shot line with sightright. Maybe if I did the old way of going down and put more effort into the cue being on the line and less into the vision center my results would improve. I would try that but because of the back pain relief I get from a square stance I don't think I could go back regardless of the results.

Either way I think that its a sightright is a good product and I think geno's method are good as well. So if you have been playing a long time and there are a lot of shots that you always miss the exact same way every time even if you tried them 100 times in a row then it might really help to seek help from one or the other. With geno teaching a more diagonal stance and sightright advocating a square stance.

In my case the square stance of sightright has much better results and alleviates back pain.
just to make it clear, i'm not standing like the way that sightright advocates (which i think is starting with your head/vision center online from the standing position and keeping it there as you're going down),i'm starting from an offset position by placing my right foot online first and then bringing my head online.

do you think i would have better results with the sightright method?
 

z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
maybe where you thought under your chin was not really your vision center spot and now you let nature find it for you?
i am not an instructor
jmho
icbw
after several VC tests i found that i'm slightly left eye dominant,so the cue is under the inside corner of my left eye and i'm right handed.when i was focusing too much on keeping that VC position as i was going down,i was verifying that i was in that exact position by pressing my chin a little firmer on the cue and i was feeling that it was exactly under the inside-corner,so i doubt that this wasn't my vision center position.
 
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pw98

Registered
just to make it clear, i'm not standing like the way that sightright advocates (which i think is starting with your head/vision center online from the standing position and keeping it there as you're going down),i'm starting from an offset position by placing my right foot online first and then bringing my head online.

do you think i would have better results with the sightright method?

I'm not sure what it would do. Have you tried the experiment I outlined above? Try it with your previous and new and improved method and see how far off your cue is actually off from the shotline. If the cue is still significantly off even with your improved method then yes sightright might help. If the cue is not off by much then no I wouldn't bother trying sightright unless you are experiencing back pain from twisting in which case sightright might help the pain some.
 

z0nt0n3r

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm not sure what it would do. Have you tried the experiment I outlined above? Try it with your previous and new and improved method and see how far off your cue is actually off from the shotline. If the cue is still significantly off even with your improved method then yes sightright might help. If the cue is not off by much then no I wouldn't bother trying sightright unless you are experiencing back pain from twisting in which case sightright might help the pain some.
i haven't tried it yet but i'm going to try it and see how it goes.
 

pw98

Registered
in the other thread i did not want it to be a sight right thread
that was the reason for my pm
if you have anything else to say
PM me

this is not a sightright endorsement thread
thank you
It is rather unfortunate that something which some people have found very helpful is commercial and therefore taboo to talk about. If it was for free on youtube and say for example the "<insert your favorite contributor's name> method" then I believe it wouldn't be as controversial.

I know from experience in the past many people have bought products to improve their game and feel they were duped so they believe all are a scam or some people are just anti capitalistic and get upset if someone is making a buck off something.

I think everyone has bought a pool product that they felt was worthless, on the other hand everyone has probably bought a pool product that they felt helped them as well.

I can assure you that sightright is not making real money at all selling gadgets for 100$ a pop to cheap ass pool players. Even with my 'endorsement' they are making chump change off selling the gadgets. What they really want to do is goad you into paying 1500-3000 for the lessons as that is where they make the real money. Sightright does this by making the video content you pay for purposely vague and lack specific details. This is a common concept in pool whether is be Geno, CTE, CJ Wiley, Dr Dave, Tin man, or Sightright. All offer something at a free or cheaper rate but if you want to get the real information they are purposely leaving out you have to pay. Honestly I find nothing wrong with this, however, I know some people do and think everyone should work for free but thats not the way the world works.

I hope it makes you feel better to know that when sightright first went up they probably were saying "think of all the money we are going to make selling videos"....fast forward 6 months later...."we have barely made anything selling gadgets maybe we should fold and get a real job". This is common in small markets with niche products.

So is rightright right for everyone? of course not. Is it right for most people? Of course not. But if you have been playing a long time and feel there is something consistently wrong with your aim and none of the free resources have been able to fix is satisfactory then it might be worth the 100$ to try or you can bang your head against the wall trying to practice it away with HAMMB (hit a million more balls) and pray to god for a miracle.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
It is rather unfortunate that something which some people have found very helpful is commercial and therefore taboo to talk about. If it was for free on youtube and say for example the "<insert your favorite contributor's name> method" then I believe it wouldn't be as controversial.

I know from experience in the past many people have bought products to improve their game and feel they were duped so they believe all are a scam or some people are just anti capitalistic and get upset if someone is making a buck off something.

I think everyone has bought a pool product that they felt was worthless, on the other hand everyone has probably bought a pool product that they felt helped them as well.

I can assure you that sightright is not making real money at all selling gadgets for 100$ a pop to cheap ass pool players. Even with my 'endorsement' they are making chump change off selling the gadgets. What they really want to do is goad you into paying 1500-3000 for the lessons as that is where they make the real money. Sightright does this by making the video content you pay for purposely vague and lack specific details. This is a common concept in pool whether is be Geno, CTE, CJ Wiley, Dr Dave, Tin man, or Sightright. All offer something at a free or cheaper rate but if you want to get the real information they are purposely leaving out you have to pay. Honestly I find nothing wrong with this, however, I know some people do and think everyone should work for free but thats not the way the world works.

I hope it makes you feel better to know that when sightright first went up they probably were saying "think of all the money we are going to make selling videos"....fast forward 6 months later...."we have barely made anything selling gadgets maybe we should fold and get a real job". This is common in small markets with niche products.

So is rightright right for everyone? of course not. Is it right for most people? Of course not. But if you have been playing a long time and feel there is something consistently wrong with your aim and none of the free resources have been able to fix is satisfactory then it might be worth the 100$ to try or you can bang your head against the wall trying to practice it away with HAMMB (hit a million more balls) and pray to god for a miracle.
for the record
i agree sightright could be beneficial for some
i have never hesitated to pay for something that i thought could help my game
whether that be instruction /books/gadgets really anything
i am an explorer and accept that "you dont know what you dont know"
what i dont think you seem to get
is if you want to promote the virtues of sightright
GO START YOUR OWN THREAD ABOUT IT
you have sidetracked this thread
edit
its not taboo to discuss a commercial product
in the proper place
why dont you go back to shuddy's thread and share your perspective
 

pw98

Registered
i haven't tried it yet but i'm going to try it and see how it goes.
Also, something I left out when describing the experiment above was it needs to be performed with both a cut to the left and to the right. Please post the results of both directions.
 

pw98

Registered
please start a new thread with your results
i hope it helps you
I have bad news for you I'm not starting a new thread. When you get a moderator to tell me to start a new thread then I will start a new thread.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I have bad news for you I'm not starting a new thread. When you get a moderator to tell me to start a new thread then I will start a new thread.
you havent broken any major rules
just common decency
 
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