Break cues - Does the butt have an impact?

[Texas Carom Club]

Can't remember where I read this, maybe Predators website.

But I remember it was once said that a 12.4 tip diameter is the most optimal diameter for pocketing balls. while an 11.8 diameter would be more difficult to pocket balls with yet easier to get spin.

sounds like a single persons opinion on the matter or did they test a million players and poll the answers

seeing how i used an 11.5 most of last yr and played decent with it, pocketing balls and all i dont put much stock on that.

how do snooker players make balls then lol

 

[Texas3cushion]

well, snooker isn't a good comparison because the tip size is relative to the ball size.

 

[WobblyStroke]

I've heard this before. In what way does diameter and balance change anything?

One affects how you actually grip the cue which can vary in terms of how stable/consistent you are through your stroke (as someone who has experimented with both fat Earl wrapped butts and low diameter butts I can tell you diameter does make a difference and not just at the extremes).

Balance will affect how the cue feels to you and how it 'wants' to swing without you interfering with it. The most efficient swings will not fight this much at all and just rely on timing out the extra force put into the swing.

So ye, the butt can affect your feel, timing, and actually how consistent your grip is and therefore massively affect how the cue plays for you. While the CB only cares about the tip and shaft, your arm feels the whole instrument you are wielding and will jive with certain setups of balance and diameter better than with others for your chosen technique.

 

[Texas3cushion]

I took a 6" weight bolt out of the back of my playing cue and love the weight and the balance of the cue. I found that a forward balance was something I really liked. It works for breaking well and playing well.

Carom cues are usually rear-weighted cues. Not sure why carom or 3c players prefer that. I've always been able to do what I wanted with a forward-weighted cue.

 

[eddieindetroit]

analysis paralysis

I break with my playing cue.
And I POUND it.

 

[WobblyStroke]

Can't remember where I read this, maybe Predators website.

But I remember it was once said that a 12.4 tip diameter is the most optimal diameter for pocketing balls. while an 11.8 diameter would be more difficult to pocket balls with yet easier to get spin.

On the one hand, it seems like nothing more than marketing as it flies in the face of Dr. Dave's myth busting videos on the topics.

On the other hand, my personal experience goes along with this in that my 11.5mm tipped cue juices the ball more than any other I own and my next smallest shaft is 12.2mm.

Also, after a long layoff from the game, I had to play a wider diameter tip because my potting was ass with the narrow shaft. The reasoning behind this is that you need more precision with the smaller tip so it is easier to hit with accidental sidespin leading to unintended deflection and CB path curvature, leading to misses. Once I shook enough rust off, I came back to old faithful with no issues potting.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...you need more precision with the smaller tip

With the same curvature a smaller tip is just a larger tip with a tiny outer layer removed - which only affects shots with maximum spin and doesn't require more precision.

pj
chgo

 

[JPB2]

I took a 6" weight bolt out of the back of my playing cue and love the weight and the balance of the cue. I found that a forward balance was something I really liked. It works for breaking well and playing well.

Carom cues are usually rear-weighted cues. Not sure why carom or 3c players prefer that. I've always been able to do what I wanted with a forward-weighted cue.

Yeah, but I think there is a video where Caudron said he liked a little more forward weight. Naturally a wood joint with a rubber grip will be more rear weighted. The newer carom cues seem more similar to modern pool cues. Shorter and stiffer yes but radial pins and smaller butt diameter than the old school aren’t they?

 

[Texas3cushion]

not sure about the butt diameter but I agree with everything else.

 

[Texas3cushion]

I actually play with 1 cue most of the time and interchange between carom and pool shafts. everything in my bag is 3/8 10

 

[WobblyStroke]

With the same curvature a smaller tip is just a larger tip with a tiny outer layer removed - which only affects shots with maximum spin and doesn't require more precision.

pj
chgo

Well whatever the reason, it's been my experience and that of others that unintended sidespin becomes more of an issue with the smaller diameter shafts. Maybe it's got as much to do with the smaller diameter being more shifty in the bridge than anything else. I don't know. But I def found the smaller tip more difficult to play with before shaking enough rust off that it wouldn't matter.

 

[hang-the-9]

The butt may not make much difference when trying to pocket balls but it can have a huge effect on how the cue feels and sounds.m I have a Z3 for my Schon that also fits my original Titlist. That shaft feels a lot nicer on the Titlist than it does on the Schon.

Yes absolutely, which is why I think when people ask how a particular cue "plays" they are asking about the hit feel, balance and diameter comfort of the butt as much as how the shaft is for deflection and action on the cueball. The issue is that for almost all those things an amazing cue for one person would be a dud for another and those secondary factors don't do anything to the ball pocketing and position play which is from the shaft. This is also why I feel that having a cue but looking for an aftermarket shaft for it is basically saying "I like this design and status, but I don't like how good I can play with it". Last year at SBE there was someone gambling using a $10,000 Black Boar with a CF shaft on it, which is the cue equivalent of using a Rolex chronograph to time your 5 year olds time-out for throwing a tantrum.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Well whatever the reason, it's been my experience and that of others that unintended sidespin becomes more of an issue with the smaller diameter shafts.

The good news is it isn't an actual physical difference - so you can "cure" it (maybe just by forgetting about it).

pj
chgo

 

[Texas3cushion]

The Mezz Power Break 2 is a good example of how the butt of a cue changes the break.

They even go into it a little on their website saying,

THE UNIQUE PB2 WEIGHT RING SYSTEM ENABLES TO BALANCE YOUR BREAK SHOT AND ENHANCE THE STABILITY OF EACH SHOT
The “Power Break II”, with the innovative Deep Impact Technology, was created for optimal control, custom balance and ultimate playability. By making the butt portion of the PBII approximately 4 inches (10.2 centimeters) shorter than the average break cue, Mezz has made it possible to reduce the amount of deflection and distortion that occurs at the time of impact. This keeps the power of the player’s stroke from escaping and transfers it directly to the cue ball. Additionally, Mezz has also developed and incorporated a unique weight adjustment system (2-Way Weight Balance System), whereby the weight and balance of the cue can be fine-tuned to suite each individual.

Power Break 2 | Mezz Cues: High Quality High Performance Cues, Shafts and Gear

Mezz cues is a high quality, high performance pool, carom and snooker cues, 100% made in Japan.

mezzcue.com

 

[ShootingArts]

On the one hand, it seems like nothing more than marketing as it flies in the face of Dr. Dave's myth busting videos on the topics.

On the other hand, my personal experience goes along with this in that my 11.5mm tipped cue juices the ball more than any other I own and my next smallest shaft is 12.2mm.

Also, after a long layoff from the game, I had to play a wider diameter tip because my potting was ass with the narrow shaft. The reasoning behind this is that you need more precision with the smaller tip so it is easier to hit with accidental sidespin leading to unintended deflection and CB path curvature, leading to misses. Once I shook enough rust off, I came back to old faithful with no issues potting.

Not sure what you mean by ass but I have the same results. When I am rusty a bigger tip and a couple ounces heavier than my featherlight cues usually works best. When I get back in stroke the lighter cue with a smaller tip suits me better.

Most of us aim down the center of the shaft so if anything a smaller shaft should hit closer to where we aim. Although I understand what PJ is saying and he is correct in theory, I have had the same results as you. I think the reason is simple, deflection. Naah, not the deflection we love to talk about but the deflection in the tip and ferrule when we hit the ball off center.

While PJ is correct that the same radius tip has the same contact to a degree, that doesn't consider that when we hit closer to the edge of a tip, particularly a small tip, it has greater distortion than hitting closer to the center of a tip. The larger tip may have a larger contact patch and that patch always has more support from the rest of the tip.

I don't know exactly why the bigger tip works better when I am rusty. In fact, it doesn't matter why, much more important to know it does work better. Back in my early days of dirt tracking I spent a lot of time reading books and articles, understanding the science of setting up a car. I used this information to set my car up. Then I went to the race track and walked around quietly snickering at the flaws in the layout and set-up of the old men's race cars. Then I got my ass kicked by the cars the old men built!

Hu

 

[WobblyStroke]

Not sure what you mean by ass but I have the same results. When I am rusty a bigger tip and a couple ounces heavier than my featherlight cues usually works best. When I get back in stroke the lighter cue with a smaller tip suits me better.

Most of us aim down the center of the shaft so if anything a smaller shaft should hit closer to where we aim. Although I understand what PJ is saying and he is correct in theory, I have had the same results as you. I think the reason is simple, deflection. Naah, not the deflection we love to talk about but the deflection in the tip and ferrule when we hit the ball off center.

While PJ is correct that the same radius tip has the same contact to a degree, that doesn't consider that when we hit closer to the edge of a tip, particularly a small tip, it has greater distortion than hitting closer to the center of a tip. The larger tip may have a larger contact patch and that patch always has more support from the rest of the tip.

I don't know exactly why the bigger tip works better when I am rusty. In fact, it doesn't matter why, much more important to know it does work better. Back in my early days of dirt tracking I spent a lot of time reading books and articles, understanding the science of setting up a car. I used this information to set my car up. Then I went to the race track and walked around quietly snickering at the flaws in the layout and set-up of the old men's race cars. Then I got my ass kicked by the cars the old men built!

Hu

I hadn't even considered the weight but now that you mention it, my small tipped cue is also 1.5oz lighter than the big tip I played with. I'm totally with you on this one too: knowing exactly why the bigger tip is better for me when rusty isn't as important as simply knowing that it is better and acting accordingly. Now that I'm back in swing for a while and using my small tip cue, I sometimes play the big tip that performed so much better for me early on off my layoff and wonder how in the world that sluggish thing ever outperformed my favorite baby. But it did. And if I have to take a bunch of time off again, I trust it will again--will at least give it a shot.

 

[hang-the-9]

The Mezz Power Break 2 is a good example of how the butt of a cue changes the break.

They even go into it a little on their website saying,

THE UNIQUE PB2 WEIGHT RING SYSTEM ENABLES TO BALANCE YOUR BREAK SHOT AND ENHANCE THE STABILITY OF EACH SHOT
The “Power Break II”, with the innovative Deep Impact Technology, was created for optimal control, custom balance and ultimate playability. By making the butt portion of the PBII approximately 4 inches (10.2 centimeters) shorter than the average break cue, Mezz has made it possible to reduce the amount of deflection and distortion that occurs at the time of impact. This keeps the power of the player’s stroke from escaping and transfers it directly to the cue ball. Additionally, Mezz has also developed and incorporated a unique weight adjustment system (2-Way Weight Balance System), whereby the weight and balance of the cue can be fine-tuned to suite each individual.

Power Break 2 | Mezz Cues: High Quality High Performance Cues, Shafts and Gear

Mezz cues is a high quality, high performance pool, carom and snooker cues, 100% made in Japan.

mezzcue.com

That is pretty much 95% marketing BS, shortening the butt does nothing for deflection, just the balance. There is no scientific (thus real) way that the butt portion of the cue will affect how the cueball reacts off the tip, only in what the player personally feels about it.

 

[Texas3cushion]

That is pretty much 95% marketing BS, shortening the butt does nothing for deflection, just the balance. There is no scientific (thus real) way that the butt portion of the cue will affect how the cueball reacts off the tip, only in what the player personally feels about it.

You are probably right about that. I think it's just forcing you to shorten your bridge length.

I have a friend who has to cue and I can tell you that it breaks well. but nothing super incredible.

 

[hang-the-9]

About the smaller tips causing more issues with aiming, I have a theory about that. Let's say a player does not have perfect aiming and mechanics, which most of us do have issues with or we would all make everything all the time LOL. A smaller tip = less deflection all other things being equal. Less deflection = the cueball goes in a straighter line.

Now take the flaws in stroke and aiming the player has developed over the years in pocketing a ball using a certain shaft, say the player uses left spin by accident, or has a small swipe, whatever it is, they learned to aim subconsciously to compensate for that with a shaft. So they are aiming off the true line, but their personal aiming with the shaft performance makes a 0-sum mistake to make the final hit true. Move to a shaft with different properties of deflection and their normal aiming compensation is now going straighter that they expected, or the accidental off-center hit is adding more throw due to how the ball reacts off the smaller less deflecting tip, and there you have a harder time controlling the cue ball with a thinner shaft.

The aiming line the player uses combined with the less deflection shaft now does not equal to 0 for aiming but -1 or +2 or whatever it may be, since our aiming in pool is a combination of many things, and if all of those don't add up to the right point of hit on the object ball it's a miss. All the variables in shooting needs to be at 0 after we add them in from the shaft performance to everything the player does from adjusting for deflection, throw and aiming at the ghost ball correctly. Change any of those, and now the calculation does not add up to 0, causing issues.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

About the smaller tips causing more issues with aiming, I have a theory about that. Let's say a player does not have perfect aiming and mechanics, which most of us do have issues with or we would all make everything all the time LOL. A smaller tip = less deflection all other things being equal. Less deflection = the cueball goes in a straighter line.

Now take the flaws in stroke and aiming the player has developed over the years in pocketing a ball using a certain shaft, say the player uses left spin by accident, or has a small swipe, whatever it is, they learned to aim subconsciously to compensate for that with a shaft. So they are aiming off the true line, but their personal aiming with the shaft performance makes a 0-sum mistake to make the final hit true. Move to a shaft with different properties of deflection and their normal aiming compensation is now going straighter that they expected, or the accidental off-center hit is adding more throw due to how the ball reacts off the smaller less deflecting tip, and there you have a harder time controlling the cue ball with a thinner shaft.

The aiming line the player uses combined with the less deflection shaft now does not equal to 0 for aiming but -1 or +2 or whatever it may be, since our aiming in pool is a combination of many things, and if all of those don't add up to the right point of hit on the object ball it's a miss. All the variables in shooting needs to be at 0 after we add them in from the shaft performance to everything the player does from adjusting for deflection, throw and aiming at the ghost ball correctly. Change any of those, and now the calculation does not add up to 0, causing issues.

So the change in squirt throws off the player's habitual aiming technique. That's likely (at least for a short while until the player adjusts), but not just for less squirt (smaller tip) - also for more (larger tip).

In other words, this isn't a "smaller tip" issue.

pj
chgo