Bridge Hand Aiming

BRKNRUN

Showin some A$$
Silver Member
I appreciate having a straightforward PSR as you wrote. That's good.

However, if only an inch of cue stick is perfectly atop the shot line, atop the thumb/forefinger channel, as in my photo above . . . of course, the entire cue stick is on the shot line. Stroke!

Kind of my point though........One would assume then after bridge hand placement......one then needs to then use the inch of shaft to "verify" the cue is straight on the shot line....

It is widely regarded in shooting that a longer barrel is much more accurate and easy to aim than a shorter barrel.....so why not use the whole cue on the shot line?????......With different size shapes configurations and dexterity of hands....a bridge can be placed many different ways under a straight shaft and execute the shot.....but a perfectly v shaped bridge hand can still end up with a crooked cue (without verifying straightness of cue).

If the cue is straight you don't need to "verify" the bridge hand.....So why introduce a "variable" (bridge hand placement) that IMO is not necessary........place the cue straight on the shot line and let the bridge lay naturally under the cue to support it in the correct location.

I think better instruction time would be spent on bridge hand configuration as it relates to "accuracy" of delivery.....not alignment......As an instructor that is the type of thing I would focus on with a student......JMO
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Kind of my point though........One would assume then after bridge hand placement......one then needs to then use the inch of shaft to "verify" the cue is straight on the shot line....

It is widely regarded in shooting that a longer barrel is much more accurate and easy to aim than a shorter barrel.....so why not use the whole cue on the shot line?????......With different size shapes configurations and dexterity of hands....a bridge can be placed many different ways under a straight shaft and execute the shot.....but a perfectly v shaped bridge hand can still end up with a crooked cue (without verifying straightness of cue).

If the cue is straight you don't need to "verify" the bridge hand.....So why introduce a "variable" (bridge hand placement) that IMO is not necessary........place the cue straight on the shot line and let the bridge lay naturally under the cue to support it in the correct location.

I think better instruction time would be spent on bridge hand configuration as it relates to "accuracy" of delivery.....not alignment......As an instructor that is the type of thing I would focus on with a student......JMO
I agree with what you wrote. Here are the steps, which agree with what you wrote (when showing a beginner how to align):

1) The bridge hand is several feet closer to the balls then the stroke hand for proprioceptive aiming, so learn to make a good bridge hand (the key is thumb and forefinger pressed together to form a straight groove)

2) Place this hand groove, holding the stick, perfectly a bit above the shot line--as if the groove of the hand is a gun at a target--then down onto the table--and then the entire cue stick is of course on the shot line

Aim - Bridge Hand Groove.jpg


3) Now do what you said, forget the hand, letting it rest immobile, and visually verify using the whole length of the cue stick, and shoot


There are other points that go with what both you and I are saying:

1) The correctly formed hand groove helps with delivery, not just alignment--far too many players fail to press the thumb inward

2) The stroke hand is usually the focus for low level players, now we can use other body parts for focus

3) On simple, straight shots, we don't really need to do anything but put the groove down and shoot--I do this when demonstrating the technique!


As for what's easier for a beginning student, standing with my head/eyes above the line then putting my hand under my face, or aiming all 58" of the cue while I can't see most of the cue behind me--try my technique of aiming your non-dominant hand, it works. :)
 
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sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I agree with what you wrote. Here are the steps, which agree with what you wrote (when showing a beginner how to align):

1) The bridge hand is several feet closer to the balls then the stroke hand for proprioceptive aiming, so learn to make a good bridge hand (the key is thumb and forefinger pressed together to form a straight groove)

2) Place this hand groove, holding the stick, perfectly a bit above the shot line--as if the groove of the hand is a gun at a target--then down onto the table--and then the entire cue stick is of course on the shot line

View attachment 752173

3) Now do what you said, forget the hand, letting it rest immobile, and visually verify using the whole length of the cue stick, and shoot


There are other points that go with what both you and I are saying:

1) The correctly formed hand groove helps with delivery, not just alignment--far too many players fail to press the thumb inward

2) The stroke hand is usually the focus for low level players, now we can use other body parts for focus

3) On simple, straight shots, we don't really need to do anything but put the groove down and shoot--I do this when demonstrating the technique!


As for what's easier for a beginning student, standing with my head/eyes above the line then putting my hand under my face, or aiming all 58" of the cue while I can't see most of the cue behind me--try my technique of aiming your non-dominant hand, it works. :)
So, I read post 21 and 22 and see very little agreement between what BRKNRUN wrote and what you wrote. Curious as to how he interprets it.

Your book is supposed to arrive next Monday or Tuesday so my review should be posted by Friday.
My guess is it will be very similar if not identical to that juvenile content on About.com.

Don't worry, even though you call me names and a liar, I really do think you're a good guy and you can rest assured I'll be fair and impartial.
 

BRKNRUN

Showin some A$$
Silver Member
I read post 21 and 22 and see very little agreement between what BRKNRUN wrote and what you wrote. Curious as to how he interprets it.
I probably would not have replied.......but

So my original response in this thread was to the OP's post.....In one of my later responses I did make a comment in reference to post #5 that suggests the V formed is a handy aiming device.......The OP Title and original post made no mention of using the shaft/cue for alignment and read (to me) like it suggested that only putting the bridge hand on the aim line/ shot line would be sufficient to pocket a ball.

My response/philosophy is that the bridge hand does not matter or need to play any part of aiming/alignment....(I will add to this in a moment)...I also added that instruction of a new student would be better served teaching bridge hand as it relates to accuracy of delivery of stroke (since this is an instruction section thread)

RE: Post (21/22)....It seemed (to me) read as accepting that shaft/cue DOES play a role in alignment but was secondary in nature to bridge hand placement.....I obviously do not agree that bridge hand is primary....It perhaps could be included as secondary if one wanted but I don't feel is necessary at all and more likely (to me) to be a variable that would complicate the process making it have a greater potential for breakdown and failure......I most likely though would have said to each their own (method) and not replied....but since I was directly asked.....I replied.

What I will add (I probably would not have and I don't expect 100% agreement).......I can not think of any pro player that first places a normal bridge hand (open or closed) on the table and then places the shaft on the bridge....mechanical bridge does not count...that is a function of parts not aim....In 100% of the professional players I have watched.....every one of them has the shaft in the bridge hand as they are dropping down from standing to stance placing the bridge on the shot line.......So in every one of them the shaft is "Covering" the bridge.....So IMO if the shaft is on the shot line the bridge hand (for alignment/aiming) is irrelevant.

Also.....It is widely known of at least two top Hall of fame instructors that use a drill of stroking off the rail with your bridge hand on your knee or behind your back.....Not to mention the many hustlers out there that will take your money playing One handed......This tells me that the bridge hand does not play a part in aim/alignment.

It does play a part in accuracy of stroke though and should be learned and practiced (especially for stability)

I do think BilliardsAbout has genuine intent on good instruction and being a good instructor....Being an instructor is not as simple as it may seem on the surface and more power to anyone that chooses that profession.........I am not a Pool Instructor in the professional sense....I was a Golf Instructor in the past giving many many lessons and have been a trainer in a past job.....It is a job that takes a ton of patience and adaptability to different learning styles/personalities.

As an instructor...(just because you are now an instructor) your individual learning does not stop....You must keep learning the new techniques / methods etc. and also the methods in which you teach....Perhaps things can be learned from this thread and horizons broadened.
 

BRKNRUN

Showin some A$$
Silver Member
As for what's easier for a beginning student, standing with my head/eyes above the line then putting my hand under my face, or aiming all 58" of the cue while I can't see most of the cue behind me--try my technique of aiming your non-dominant hand, it works. :)
Not sure what you are getting at with non-dominant hand......(bridge hand???).......So for me my dominant hand is more my right hand...the one I throw a ball with......my left hand though is my grip hand since I shoot pool left handed and am left eye dominant......but I play Golf right handed..........but I also eat with a fork in my left hand and I am a pretty dominant eater so perhaps my left hand IS my dominant hand.......;)

I probably do something similar but has automatic alignment built into it........

While standing. starting with my "GRIP HAND" on the shot line.....I get into my final feet placement before bending over......It all happens very quick and my go un-noticed.....If you watch every pro player they do pretty much the same thing (some will call it stepping into the shot)......They step forward which turns the cue along the shot line and "then" bends over down on the shot line........sometimes you won't even see a step.....sometimes it is a step "back"....watch Earl, Shane, Efren, CJ, all of them.....it is step then bend....sometimes the feet are already set and it is just a bend.......but the key is the cue is on the shot line before they bend....(other than that it does not matter how they get there)

Anyway.....starting with "GRIP HAND" on the shot line......Orientate the cue along the shot line (by moving the feet not twisting the body).....before you bend over the cue will be pointing down the shot line "above" the CB and point through(over) the CB at the aim point....(not necessarily CB/OB contact point) of the OB....It may be Center CB to Edge of OB....Center CB to 1/4 OB...but it is always through(above) center CB to a aim point.......

Since the cue is going through center CB.....The CB acts as an axis point for the cue.....if the tip of the cue as on the aim point and the shaft of the cue is going through the center of the CB.....unless you have a crooked cue...your grip hand "MUST" be on the shot line and your cue is dead straight on the shot line....now when you bend over the cue just drops right down on the shot line.......

In my case I am strong left eye dominant.......If I close my right eye the shaft stays right through center CB at the aim point....If I close my left eye the shaft moves off the ball....So (me personally)...As I am still standing and "air stroking" above the shot line.... I tend to "blink" shut my right eye to verify my alignment.
 

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member

I probably would not have replied.......but

So my original response in this thread was to the OP's post.....In one of my later responses I did make a comment in reference to post #5 that suggests the V formed is a handy aiming device.......The OP Title and original post made no mention of using the shaft/cue for alignment and read (to me) like it suggested that only putting the bridge hand on the aim line/ shot line would be sufficient to pocket a ball.

My response/philosophy is that the bridge hand does not matter or need to play any part of aiming/alignment....(I will add to this in a moment)...I also added that instruction of a new student would be better served teaching bridge hand as it relates to accuracy of delivery of stroke (since this is an instruction section thread)

RE: Post (21/22)....It seemed (to me) read as accepting that shaft/cue DOES play a role in alignment but was secondary in nature to bridge hand placement.....I obviously do not agree that bridge hand is primary....It perhaps could be included as secondary if one wanted but I don't feel is necessary at all and more likely (to me) to be a variable that would complicate the process making it have a greater potential for breakdown and failure......I most likely though would have said to each their own (method) and not replied....but since I was directly asked.....I replied.

What I will add (I probably would not have and I don't expect 100% agreement).......I can not think of any pro player that first places a normal bridge hand (open or closed) on the table and then places the shaft on the bridge....mechanical bridge does not count...that is a function of parts not aim....In 100% of the professional players I have watched.....every one of them has the shaft in the bridge hand as they are dropping down from standing to stance placing the bridge on the shot line.......So in every one of them the shaft is "Covering" the bridge.....So IMO if the shaft is on the shot line the bridge hand (for alignment/aiming) is irrelevant.

Also.....It is widely known of at least two top Hall of fame instructors that use a drill of stroking off the rail with your bridge hand on your knee or behind your back.....Not to mention the many hustlers out there that will take your money playing One handed......This tells me that the bridge hand does not play a part in aim/alignment.

It does play a part in accuracy of stroke though and should be learned and practiced (especially for stability)

I do think BilliardsAbout has genuine intent on good instruction and being a good instructor....Being an instructor is not as simple as it may seem on the surface and more power to anyone that chooses that profession.........I am not a Pool Instructor in the professional sense....I was a Golf Instructor in the past giving many many lessons and have been a trainer in a past job.....It is a job that takes a ton of patience and adaptability to different learning styles/personalities.

As an instructor...(just because you are now an instructor) your individual learning does not stop....You must keep learning the new techniques / methods etc. and also the methods in which you teach....Perhaps things can be learned from this thread and horizons broadened.
Thanks for the reply. I'm not an instructor just a pool player. I do help people out now and then if they ask. Every poolroom I've ever hung out at I was/am the go to guy when someone has a question. That's my only qualification.
As for the questions and answers on this forum I don't really consider them from a technical or physics standpoint but more from a practical viewpoint based on my own experience gained from playing the game.

When people ask questions about certain shots or position plays , a great deal of the time it's obvious from the question that they're lacking in knowledge of "how the balls work" and why they work that way.
In that case my approach is to use their question to help increase their knowledge of underlying principles pertaining to that particular situation but which also can be applied to multiple similar shots. I find it pointless to tell them to "hit it with bottom left" without making sure they know the reasoning for doing so.

It's the same with speed control. We've all heard people constantly bitching about (damn, I didn't hit it hard enough... or, stop, stop, shit I went too far). I know I'm being a little simplistic but the biggest factor in good speed control is not speed itself, per se. It's playing the correct shots and position routes.
Doing countless speed control drills will probably help with speed but it won't help at all in playing correctly. On the other hand, if you play the right shots and position choices then speed largely takes care of itself. You won't have to spend much time on speed drills.

Another is follow through. Telling someone to work on their follow through is kind of putting the cart before the horse. If you concentrate on good stroke mechanics then follow through becomes automatic and largely irrelevant.
The reverse, however is not always true. Simply because you followed through doesn't necessarily mean you put a good stroke on the ball, but if you do put a good stroke it's pretty difficult not to follow through. It's not something you have to think about.

Anyway, I'm off on tangents here. While the bridge hand is important for many reasons, it's configuration and placement are largely dictated by type of shot and table layout. Those reasons are normally the main considerations as to how it lands and where it lands.
One thing not to consider, is using it as an aiming aid. JMO
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
One thing not to consider, is using it as an aiming aid. JMO
I have no horse in this "race" but I have found an exception. My buddy told me this but if you're playing a jacked up shot and you point your first finger at the target on the OB something about it makes it easier to confirm you are on the shot line. You also use this finger to support the shaft. I imagine it's just because you're pointing at it relatively straight and your stick is jacked up so you can't see it as much. It works for him and several friends that he's shared it with. I think it kind of works but I line up differently so it's only a bit effective for me.

It might just be a little mental trick or something, it's not what is being described in the exchange you guys are having but it's kind of a neat trick if it works for the individual person.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
So, I read post 21 and 22 and see very little agreement between what BRKNRUN wrote and what you wrote. Curious as to how he interprets it.

Your book is supposed to arrive next Monday or Tuesday so my review should be posted by Friday.
My guess is it will be very similar if not identical to that juvenile content on About.com.

Don't worry, even though you call me names and a liar, I really do think you're a good guy and you can rest assured I'll be fair and impartial.
Do you have any response to my Post #19 or not, where I point out two of your lies?

 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
I probably would not have replied.......but

So my original response in this thread was to the OP's post.....In one of my later responses I did make a comment in reference to post #5 that suggests the V formed is a handy aiming device.......The OP Title and original post made no mention of using the shaft/cue for alignment and read (to me) like it suggested that only putting the bridge hand on the aim line/ shot line would be sufficient to pocket a ball.

My response/philosophy is that the bridge hand does not matter or need to play any part of aiming/alignment....(I will add to this in a moment)...I also added that instruction of a new student would be better served teaching bridge hand as it relates to accuracy of delivery of stroke (since this is an instruction section thread)

RE: Post (21/22)....It seemed (to me) read as accepting that shaft/cue DOES play a role in alignment but was secondary in nature to bridge hand placement.....I obviously do not agree that bridge hand is primary....It perhaps could be included as secondary if one wanted but I don't feel is necessary at all and more likely (to me) to be a variable that would complicate the process making it have a greater potential for breakdown and failure......I most likely though would have said to each their own (method) and not replied....but since I was directly asked.....I replied.

What I will add (I probably would not have and I don't expect 100% agreement).......I can not think of any pro player that first places a normal bridge hand (open or closed) on the table and then places the shaft on the bridge....mechanical bridge does not count...that is a function of parts not aim....In 100% of the professional players I have watched.....every one of them has the shaft in the bridge hand as they are dropping down from standing to stance placing the bridge on the shot line.......So in every one of them the shaft is "Covering" the bridge.....So IMO if the shaft is on the shot line the bridge hand (for alignment/aiming) is irrelevant.

Also.....It is widely known of at least two top Hall of fame instructors that use a drill of stroking off the rail with your bridge hand on your knee or behind your back.....Not to mention the many hustlers out there that will take your money playing One handed......This tells me that the bridge hand does not play a part in aim/alignment.

It does play a part in accuracy of stroke though and should be learned and practiced (especially for stability)

I do think BilliardsAbout has genuine intent on good instruction and being a good instructor....Being an instructor is not as simple as it may seem on the surface and more power to anyone that chooses that profession.........I am not a Pool Instructor in the professional sense....I was a Golf Instructor in the past giving many many lessons and have been a trainer in a past job.....It is a job that takes a ton of patience and adaptability to different learning styles/personalities.

As an instructor...(just because you are now an instructor) your individual learning does not stop....You must keep learning the new techniques / methods etc. and also the methods in which you teach....Perhaps things can be learned from this thread and horizons broadened.

Not sure what you are getting at with non-dominant hand......(bridge hand???).......So for me my dominant hand is more my right hand...the one I throw a ball with......my left hand though is my grip hand since I shoot pool left handed and am left eye dominant......but I play Golf right handed..........but I also eat with a fork in my left hand and I am a pretty dominant eater so perhaps my left hand IS my dominant hand.......;)

I probably do something similar but has automatic alignment built into it........

While standing. starting with my "GRIP HAND" on the shot line.....I get into my final feet placement before bending over......It all happens very quick and my go un-noticed.....If you watch every pro player they do pretty much the same thing (some will call it stepping into the shot)......They step forward which turns the cue along the shot line and "then" bends over down on the shot line........sometimes you won't even see a step.....sometimes it is a step "back"....watch Earl, Shane, Efren, CJ, all of them.....it is step then bend....sometimes the feet are already set and it is just a bend.......but the key is the cue is on the shot line before they bend....(other than that it does not matter how they get there)

Anyway.....starting with "GRIP HAND" on the shot line......Orientate the cue along the shot line (by moving the feet not twisting the body).....before you bend over the cue will be pointing down the shot line "above" the CB and point through(over) the CB at the aim point....(not necessarily CB/OB contact point) of the OB....It may be Center CB to Edge of OB....Center CB to 1/4 OB...but it is always through(above) center CB to a aim point.......

Since the cue is going through center CB.....The CB acts as an axis point for the cue.....if the tip of the cue as on the aim point and the shaft of the cue is going through the center of the CB.....unless you have a crooked cue...your grip hand "MUST" be on the shot line and your cue is dead straight on the shot line....now when you bend over the cue just drops right down on the shot line.......

In my case I am strong left eye dominant.......If I close my right eye the shaft stays right through center CB at the aim point....If I close my left eye the shaft moves off the ball....So (me personally)...As I am still standing and "air stroking" above the shot line.... I tend to "blink" shut my right eye to verify my alignment.
I agree that continual learning is important for all players, and also makes for a passionate, worthwhile instructor.

I did not say putting the bridge hand on the line is sufficient to pocket a ball. I did say if the groove is atop the shot line, the cue is of course atop the shot line as below:

Aim - Bridge Hand Groove.jpg


And since the cue is on line, one can shoot. For beginners, their bridge hand is feet closer to the shot line than their stroke hand. Proprioception (awarness of body movement and alignment) allows someone to pocket a lot of shots in this manner.
 

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Do you have any response to my Post #19 or not, where I point out two of your lies?

Nope double o, you're way too smart for this dumb pool player.
 

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So you admit you've lied about four times on this thread, by trimming my posts and claiming I wrote things I didn't?

Thank you for admitting it.
When I say, nope double o, you're way too smart for this dumb pool player, that doesn't mean that I lied. Another reading and comprehending mistake by you.
Book review is getting closer, bet you can't wait. Are there any sticks and balls in the book or are all the pics of your hand with pens and pieces of paper? Does Tony Robles make an appearance.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
When I say, nope double o, you're way too smart for this dumb pool player, that doesn't mean that I lied. Another reading and comprehending mistake by you.
Book review is getting closer, bet you can't wait. Are there any sticks and balls in the book or are all the pics of your hand with pens and pieces of paper? Does Tony Robles make an appearance.
You are the first book reviewer I've met who posts five separate times to threaten me with a book review (and to assume what my book contains before actually reading a single page)!

Which of course means you've lied again several more times on this thread, such as in your Post #23, "Don't worry . . . I really do think you're a good guy and you can rest assured I'll be fair and impartial."
 

FairladyZ

The Boss Stooge
Staff member
Moderator
Silver Member
It boggles my mind why aiming conversations get so heated.....but nobody has crossed any lines here. That said, lets tone it down a notch and try to stay on-topic.

Thx
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Thanks for the reply. I'm not an instructor just a pool player. I do help people out now and then if they ask. Every poolroom I've ever hung out at I was/am the go to guy when someone has a question. That's my only qualification.
As for the questions and answers on this forum I don't really consider them from a technical or physics standpoint but more from a practical viewpoint based on my own experience gained from playing the game.

When people ask questions about certain shots or position plays , a great deal of the time it's obvious from the question that they're lacking in knowledge of "how the balls work" and why they work that way.
In that case my approach is to use their question to help increase their knowledge of underlying principles pertaining to that particular situation but which also can be applied to multiple similar shots. I find it pointless to tell them to "hit it with bottom left" without making sure they know the reasoning for doing so.

It's the same with speed control. We've all heard people constantly bitching about (damn, I didn't hit it hard enough... or, stop, stop, shit I went too far). I know I'm being a little simplistic but the biggest factor in good speed control is not speed itself, per se. It's playing the correct shots and position routes.
Doing countless speed control drills will probably help with speed but it won't help at all in playing correctly. On the other hand, if you play the right shots and position choices then speed largely takes care of itself. You won't have to spend much time on speed drills.

Another is follow through. Telling someone to work on their follow through is kind of putting the cart before the horse. If you concentrate on good stroke mechanics then follow through becomes automatic and largely irrelevant.
The reverse, however is not always true. Simply because you followed through doesn't necessarily mean you put a good stroke on the ball, but if you do put a good stroke it's pretty difficult not to follow through. It's not something you have to think about.

Anyway, I'm off on tangents here. While the bridge hand is important for many reasons, it's configuration and placement are largely dictated by type of shot and table layout. Those reasons are normally the main considerations as to how it lands and where it lands.
One thing not to consider, is using it as an aiming aid. JMO
I'm asking why, politely, why not use the player's bridge hand as an aiming aid, as you wrote? The cue stick sits atop it.
 

sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm asking why, politely, why not use the player's bridge hand as an aiming aid, as you wrote? The cue stick sits atop it.
What are you talking about? "why not use the players bridge hand as an aiming aid, as you wrote?" No, I did not write that.
Please read what I actually write and stop telling me I wrote something different.
I gave a synopsis of the function of the bridge hand without going into any detail and ended with JMO. I would hope you know what that means???
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
What are you talking about? "why not use the players bridge hand as an aiming aid, as you wrote?" No, I did not write that.
Please read what I actually write and stop telling me I wrote something different.
I gave a synopsis of the function of the bridge hand without going into any detail and ended with JMO. I would hope you know what that means???
Your final sentence before JOM was "One thing not to consider, is using it as an aiming aid." My question stands.

Do you have a factual reason to "not even consider using the bridge hand as aim aid"? Do you have facts supporting your opinion?
 
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sparkle84

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Your final sentence before JOM was "One thing not to consider, is using it as an aiming aid." My question stands.
It's JMO. JUST MY OPINION. I assumed you knew what it meant. My bad.
Do you have a factual reason to "not even consider using the bridge hand as aim aid"? Do you have facts supporting your opinion?
No, I don't need any. The last paragraph of post #26 is in clear and precise English. That was and still is MY OPINION. If I have a reason, factual or otherwise, it was stated in that paragraph.

Much of my upcoming book review will also consist of my opinions. I will not be answering questions about same.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
It's JMO. JUST MY OPINION. I assumed you knew what it meant. My bad.

No, I don't need any. The last paragraph of post #26 is in clear and precise English. That was and still is MY OPINION. If I have a reason, factual or otherwise, it was stated in that paragraph.

Much of my upcoming book review will also consist of my opinions. I will not be answering questions about same.
Then why were you complaining when I suggested using groove aim for beginners? Because you had a strong opinion, but zero facts?

That seems illogical. Do you agree?
 
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