Bring Back Hustling Culture

[Minnesota Phat]

You're spot on about the conflicting messaging. I actually have no problem with the Predator name, I think of the competitor's killer instinct (hmm...maybe not the best term but you know what I mean) although there are certainly many less savory connotations of the word. That conflicting messaging is in a lot of places in our culture. Let's face it, "Wolf of Wall Street" made swindling people seem like a lot of fun.

Well... I suspect there are a number of people on this forum who have some relationship with Predator, and I don't want to start being too critical of one particular company before I've informed myself more fully about how that particular company operates. For all I know, Predator donates millions of dollars to starving orphans (although I doubt it, but "doubting" is different from "knowing").

So forget Predator, because I don't want to speak from ignorance, but let's say we have a billiards company named "Murderer Inc.," and:

1) Murderer Inc. outsources manufacturing to a communist dictatorship that has a poor human rights record, to the point that some accuse that country of using slave labor, and

2) Murderer Inc. produces tons of P.R. material talking about how awesome that company is, and how great it is for pool, and

3) Murderer Inc. introduces a bunch of gimmicky pool equipment that makes playing pool more expensive for most people, and arguably less aesthetically pleasing, and

4) Murderer Inc. sponsors money tournaments, and profits heavily from the P.R. generated by those tournaments.

Is that company the worst kind of hustler?

Imagine if the NBA, upon pressure from basketball equipment manufacturers that sponsor NBA games, started using a ball that is five times as expensive as any other ball, and uses "new technology" to make it easier to dribble. Everyone who is serious about basketball would have to switch to that ball, or be at a disadvantage.

Didn't something like that happen with low-deflection shafts?

I don't think hustling has disappeared from American pool - I think it has just been corporatized.

I'd rather be hustled out of $50 by you or one of the hustlers on this thread while learning some valuable lessons about the game of pool than be hustled out of hundreds or thousands of dollars by corporations that have figured out a way to make pool more expensive to play. Sure, I could just buy a non-LD shaft, but then I'd be at a big disadvantage playing against most high-level players.

Next they'll put nano-tech springs in the shafts that allow 50mph breaks every time, and each shaft will cost $500+.

And then there are the "American" companies that seem to be trying to disguise the fact that a lot of their cues are made in China. McDermott "Lucky," Viking "Valhalla," etc. How many of these "American" companies are up-front about their sub-brands being Made in China? Their marketing materials typically dance around that fact for some strange reason - gee, I wonder why?

We're already being hustled, aren't we? I'd rather give my money to a guy or gal who is fun to play pool with than some corporation that outsources manufacturing to a communist dictatorship, and it's not like entering pool tournaments is free, anyway.

 

[Minnesota Phat]

Nice to hear from you ... I'm eating breakfast with friends [they're about to show up, so I have a "second" to touch base.

Do us both a favor by at least replying so I can quickly find THIS comment and I'll give you some useful info ... probably today!

Willie

Cheers! Sorry, I don't always check my AZBilliards account every day, so I didn't reply right away, but I'm interested in what you have to say.

BTW, I think it's great that you provided good cues to people, etc. As for house cues, I have noticed that a nearby billiards hall (Shooters) seems to have pretty nice house cues - almost too nice, because shortly after I bought my first cue, I visited Shooters and used the house cue as a break cue, and one time I forgot to switch back to my new cue after breaking, and I was shooting better with the house cue than with the cue I recently purchased. Doh!

 

[tomatoshooter]

Well... I suspect there are a number of people on this forum who have some relationship with Predator, and I don't want to start being too critical of one particular company before I've informed myself more fully about how that particular company operates. For all I know, Predator donates millions of dollars to starving orphans (although I doubt it, but "doubting" is different from "knowing").

So forget Predator, because I don't want to speak from ignorance, but let's say we have a billiards company named "Murderer Inc.," and:

1) Murderer Inc. outsources manufacturing to a communist dictatorship that has a poor human rights record, to the point that some accuse that country of using slave labor, and

2) Murderer Inc. produces tons of P.R. material talking about how awesome that company is, and how great it is for pool, and

3) Murderer Inc. introduces a bunch of gimmicky pool equipment that makes playing pool more expensive for most people, and arguably less aesthetically pleasing, and

4) Murderer Inc. sponsors money tournaments, and profits heavily from the P.R. generated by those tournaments.

Is that company the worst kind of hustler?

Imagine if the NBA, upon pressure from basketball equipment manufacturers that sponsor NBA games, started using a ball that is five times as expensive as any other ball, and uses "new technology" to make it easier to dribble. Everyone who is serious about basketball would have to switch to that ball, or be at a disadvantage.

Didn't something like that happen with low-deflection shafts?

I don't think hustling has disappeared from American pool - I think it has just been corporatized.

I'd rather be hustled out of $50 by you or one of the hustlers on this thread while learning some valuable lessons about the game of pool than be hustled out of hundreds or thousands of dollars by corporations that have figured out a way to make pool more expensive to play. Sure, I could just buy a non-LD shaft, but then I'd be at a big disadvantage playing against most high-level players.

Next they'll put nano-tech springs in the shafts that allow 50mph breaks every time, and each shaft will cost $500+.

And then there are the "American" companies that seem to be trying to disguise the fact that a lot of their cues are made in China. McDermott "Lucky," Viking "Valhalla," etc. How many of these "American" companies are up-front about their sub-brands being Made in China? Their marketing materials typically dance around that fact for some strange reason - gee, I wonder why?

We're already being hustled, aren't we? I'd rather give my money to a guy or gal who is fun to play pool with than some corporation that outsources manufacturing to a communist dictatorship, and it's not like entering pool tournaments is free, anyway.

Now we're getting into a critique of consumerism, corporatism, capitalism, and capitalism profiting from communism. Maybe even a little bit of macroeconomics. I think that's an interesting topic, although it does seem a bit of a digression from what I perceived to be the original nature of this thread.

Your point about low deflection shafts is interesting. There have always been shafts that had more or less deflection although I guess Predator was the first to market a shaft with different construction developed for that purpose. I definitely get your point about it turning into an arms race.

As far as made in China, that seems to be the place to go to manufacture things at a price point that moves units. Many consumers are looking for something on a budget. Many don't have the option of paying more. Where I really turn my nose up at Chinese products is when they charge a price that is close to American made prices for exploited labor. When feasible I will buy something made elsewhere, preferably USA, Canada, Mexico and Latin America, Taiwan (just to stick it to the Chinese), etc. Korea and Indonesia both make lots of guitars and make them very well much of the time. China manufactures more of the lower tier instruments. The difference here is that imported guitars are not being sold at the same price point as American guitars, although in many cases you'd be hard pressed to definitively say that $2000+ American guitars are better than a $1200 Indonesian guitar.

I definitely feel that outsourcing our manufacturing has depressed wages and that eats up a lot of the savings from the availability of cheaper goods. There seems to be some of disagreement over minimum wage but I think the real problem is the loss of jobs that pay better than minimum wage.

 

[Minnesota Phat]

Now we're getting into a critique of consumerism, corporatism, capitalism, and capitalism profiting from communism. Maybe even a little bit of macroeconomics. I think that's an interesting topic, although it does seem a bit of a digression from what I perceived to be the original nature of this thread.

Your point about low deflection shafts is interesting. There have always been shafts that had more or less deflection although I guess Predator was the first to market a shaft with different construction developed for that purpose. I definitely get your point about it turning into an arms race.

As far as made in China, that seems to be the place to go to manufacture things at a price point that moves units. Many consumers are looking for something on a budget. Many don't have the option of paying more. Where I really turn my nose up at Chinese products is when they charge a price that is close to American made prices for exploited labor. When feasible I will buy something made elsewhere, preferably USA, Canada, Mexico and Latin America, Taiwan (just to stick it to the Chinese), etc. Korea and Indonesia both make lots of guitars and make them very well much of the time. China manufactures more of the lower tier instruments. The difference here is that imported guitars are not being sold at the same price point as American guitars, although in many cases you'd be hard pressed to definitively say that $2000+ American guitars are better than a $1200 Indonesian guitar.

I definitely feel that outsourcing our manufacturing has depressed wages and that eats up a lot of the savings from the availability of cheaper goods. There seems to be some of disagreement over minimum wage but I think the real problem is the loss of jobs that pay better than minimum wage.

I hear why you'd think it's off-topic, but I actually think what I'm saying is relevant to the negative critiques of "hustling."

Some people are claiming that hustling is using deception to con people out of their money, which I don't entirely agree with, but for the sake of argument let's say that "hustling" means "Deceiving and manipulating others in order to take their money." Well then, if sponsors of events are going to say that "hustlers are bad and tarnish the sport," isn't it relevant if the tournament sponsors are deceiving and manipulating people in order to take their money?

I meet lots of people with Made in China cues who don't know their cues are made in China, and who would vastly prefer to buy a cue made in America. Often, the Made in China cue is the same price or more expensive than a Made in the USA cue. Why is this happening? I would argue that it's happening because billiards companies use a lot of deceptive advertising to put a smoke-screen over where their products are manufactured. Heck, I think Dufferin puts the Canadian maple leaf on their Made in China cues. I also think McDermott has a starter cue that just says "McDermott" on it, which could easily confuse people into thinking it's Made in the USA like McDermott's normal signature line.

On Ebay I see a lot of "McDermott" and "Viking" cues that are really Stars, Luckies, and Valhallas. It has been very frustrating for me to try to navigate all the deception to figure out where cues are made.

You're right about deflection, but when did they start hollowing out shafts, or using carbon fiber shafts? How do all of these gimmicks improve the game of pool? You're not allowed to use a corked bat in baseball, or shoes with springs in basketball, but in pool you now have to buy expensive stuff to stay competitive. Who does that benefit? What does that do for the sport, other than make it inaccessible to people who can't afford all the high-priced products sold by billiards companies?

As for billiards companies outsourcing manufacturing to China, it relates to promoting a "clean image" of pool.

If "industry leaders" want to talk about some of the people on this thread like they're unsavory characters who "hurt the game of pool," then those "industry leaders" should practice what they preach.

It's very difficult to know whether a China-made cue is made by Uighurs held in reeducation camps or by relatively well-treated Chinese employees, or something in-between. Moreover, the Communist Party of China is notorious for threatening and silencing any corporation who does business in China and is critical of the CPC, and this has a detrimental impact on free speech in America. Hollywood edits movies to please the CPC, and don't get me started on the NBA, the Olympic committee, etc. #FreeHongKong #TaiwanIsACountry.

For awhile there, Facebook banned its users from discussing the Wuhan Lab Leak Theory. We were banned from criticizing the Chinese government's actions by Facebook, and I have a problem with that.

I know it's nuanced, and I myself bought a pool cue case made in China by an American Air Force veteran who moved there to be with his Chinese wife, so I'm not holier than thou, but I think there are valid criticisms that can be leveled at companies who decide to support the move of America's manufacturing capabilities to China.

Is there some huge shortage of Americans who want to make pool cues? I sincerely doubt it, and if cue manufacturing was kept in America, we'd probably see innovations that would allow for cheaper cues to be made in America.

Ask one of these Made in China companies to publicly denounce the CPC's violation of international treaties in regards to the governance of Hong Kong, or ask them to make a pool cue with Taiwan's flag, and I bet that their responses will remind you of the worst type of hustler.

 

[WillieRackam]

Now we're getting into a critique of consumerism, corporatism, capitalism, and capitalism profiting from communism. Maybe even a little bit of macroeconomics. I think that's an interesting topic, although it does seem a bit of a digression from what I perceived to be the original nature of this thread.

Your point about low deflection shafts is interesting. There have always been shafts that had more or less deflection although I guess Predator was the first to market a shaft with different construction developed for that purpose. I definitely get your point about it turning into an arms race.

As far as made in China, that seems to be the place to go to manufacture things at a price point that moves units. Many consumers are looking for something on a budget. Many don't have the option of paying more. Where I really turn my nose up at Chinese products is when they charge a price that is close to American made prices for exploited labor. When feasible I will buy something made elsewhere, preferably USA, Canada, Mexico and Latin America, Taiwan (just to stick it to the Chinese), etc. Korea and Indonesia both make lots of guitars and make them very well much of the time. China manufactures more of the lower tier instruments. The difference here is that imported guitars are not being sold at the same price point as American guitars, although in many cases you'd be hard pressed to definitively say that $2000+ American guitars are better than a $1200 Indonesian guitar.

I definitely feel that outsourcing our manufacturing has depressed wages and that eats up a lot of the savings from the availability of cheaper goods. There seems to be some of disagreement over minimum wage but I think the real problem is the loss of jobs that pay better than minimum wage.

I just noticed your post, read a few lines and plan to "double back" and read it all. I'm too busy goofing off, etc. and want to give it the attention it deserves. If you will "bear with me" you will find that everything I write in these forums does [at least eventually ] apply to the game and/or culture of billiards. However, I am "loquacious" ...

Btw, I couldn't help but read just a couple of more lines [I'm also "insanely curious"] and you've planted the seed for a little more info and "food for thought" than I had originally planned. Many thanks!

FYI [didn't want to overuse my "btw's" ]. I am not sayin' that you misused the word critique, BUT I will thank you for using it since that will be a springboard for something else I want to share with my billiard friends [and others in the billiards world]

Sorry, I need to get back to goofing off, but ... I'll Be Back [w/ apologies to Arnold Schwarzenegger (sp?)]

 

[bbb]

I just noticed your post, read a few lines and plan to "double back" and read it all. I'm too busy goofing off, etc. and want to give it the attention it deserves. If you will "bear with me" you will find that everything I write in these forums does [at least eventually ] apply to the game and/or culture of billiards. However, I am "loquacious" ...

Btw, I couldn't help but read just a couple of more lines [I'm also "insanely curious"] and you've planted the seed for a little more info and "food for thought" than I had originally planned. Many thanks!

FYI [didn't want to overuse my "btw's" ]. I am not sayin' that you misused the word critique, BUT I will thank you for using it since that will be a springboard for something else I want to share with my billiard friends [and others in the billiards world]

Sorry, I need to get back to goofing off, but ... I'll Be Back [w/ apologies to Arnold Schwarzenegger (sp?)]

you should run for president
you talk alot of words but make no point
no disrespect intended (peace)

 

[Fatboy]

You're spot on about the conflicting messaging. I actually have no problem with the Predator name, I think of the competitor's killer instinct (hmm...maybe not the best term but you know what I mean) although there are certainly many less savory connotations of the word. That conflicting messaging is in a lot of places in our culture. Let's face it, "Wolf of Wall Street" made swindling people seem like a lot of fun.

I can tell you first hand, swindling is fun. I know it sounds horrible but man it was fun.

“Money swindled is twice as sweet as money won”

“Money won is twice as sweet as money earned”

Fatboy<——-never earned a dollar

Wow if this isn’t self incrimination I don’t know what is. Oh wait! The statute of limitations has long expired. I haven’t swindled since 96.

On a more somber note, yes I do feel bad for lots of the damage I caused swindling people. I never caused anyones financial demise or ruined them. But I still did somethings that I shouldn’t have. And there’s no going back. I was young and that’s not a excuse, I was broke and found a out in life to make some $. And I wont lie it was fun.

 

[tomatoshooter]

Is there some huge shortage of Americans who want to make pool cues?

Yes. That's what happens when you tell three generations of students they have to go to college and neglect to acknowledge that actually producing a physical object with real value is rewarding and not just a way for stupid people to keep food on the table. If you want to talk about hustle, talk about the college-industrial complex. Everybody teaching in school came through a college and has the colonized mind that only recognizes more paid-for education as the way to better yourself.

 

[Geosnookery]

China made cues? Why not. There are more Chinese billiard players.

I’m not American. I want a decent cue, I don’t care if my cue or my new
iPad is made in China or in country a or b. My car is made in Japan and not Canada.

 

[dnschmidt]

Right, pool isn't sleazy enough in most people's eyes let's celebrate its sleaziness. A sure way to attract corporate sponsorships. The last real corporate sponsor we had if I’m not mistaken was Camel cigarettes (obviously appealing to the higher classes there), whereas The Masters has IBM and Mercedes Benz.

 

[Biloxi Boy]

&*(# Golf. When I was a kid, I couldn't get in the country club, but the pool hall took me in and has never treated me wrong. Hate those @*#()(* shirts.

 

[Fatboy]

Yes. That's what happens when you tell three generations of students they have to go to college and neglect to acknowledge that actually producing a physical object with real value is rewarding and not just a way for stupid people to keep food on the table. If you want to talk about hustle, talk about the college-industrial complex. Everybody teaching in school came through a college and has the colonized mind that only recognizes more paid-for education as the way to better yourself.

Paid for educations are worthless.

I hire college graduates because they tend to have better work habits and work harder. They aren’t more competent. They just are a better value for me as a employer. I’m getting the best if it. Sadly.

I learned enough in college to realize any longer was a waste of time and I wasn’t entitled to shit if I did graduate.

Again sadly I have many friends who did graduate and never made anything of their life’s, they are depressed middle aged and waiting for that degree to pay-off. Sad story’s

I’m not knocking anyone who does graduate. I respect them for their hard work. But they were mislead, a degree is just that and nothing else.

Harsh world, gotta have street smarts, problem solving ability, discipline, and luck. I’m lazy that’s my weak link. But it takes all my time-heard that in a song once

Life’s been good so far…….

Best Fatboy

And again no disrespect to any educated graduates. You guys did something I couldn’t do. But keep it real-that’s not enough.

 

[Fatboy]

Right, pool isn't sleazy enough in most people's eyes let's celebrate its sleaziness. A sure way to attract corporate sponsorships. The last real corporate sponsor we had if I’m not mistaken was Camel cigarettes (obviously appealing to the higher classes there), whereas The Masters has IBM and Mercedes Benz.

Don’t forget Rolex does equestrian events as a corp sponsor

 

[Minnesota Phat]

China made cues? Why not. There are more Chinese billiard players.

I’m not American. I want a decent cue, I don’t care if my cue or my new
iPad is made in China or in country a or b. My car is made in Japan and not Canada.

It's a nuanced subject, but I'd refer you to the YouTube channels China Uncensored, LaoWhy86, Serpentza, and ADV China for some primers on how the government of China is projecting soft power to try to create a world dominated by authoritarian worker states.

I personally dislike that Americans are being censored due to various actions taken by the Communist Party of China, and I also feel uncomfortable buying products that may have been made by political prisoners in forced labor camps. I subscribe to a freedom-loving ideology that stands in direct opposition to the authoritarian ideology of the CPC, and if you think that Chinese-style authoritarianism hasn't gained any ground, look around you - lockdowns, mandates, forced vaccination, censorship - do you really think this has nothing to do with Document #9 and the Chinese government's attempts to push the adoption of authoritarian ideology around the world?

Perhaps as you learn more about this subject, your views will change, or perhaps not. It's a free country! (Oh wait - do you live in Canada? Well at least it's not as bad as China... yet).

 

[Geosnookery]

Right, pool isn't sleazy enough in most people's eyes let's celebrate its sleaziness. A sure way to attract corporate sponsorships. The last real corporate sponsor we had if I’m not mistaken was Camel cigarettes (obviously appealing to the higher classes there), whereas The Masters has IBM and Mercedes Benz

True.
Pro billiards can’t thrive from without major sponsorship, and that major sponsorship is not billiards related sports equipment. It has to be sponsorship outside of the sporting industry be banking, tech, travel, insurance, etc. These companies want their brand name associated with a positive image.

 

[JazzyJeff87]

Right, pool isn't sleazy enough in most people's eyes let's celebrate its sleaziness. A sure way to attract corporate sponsorships. The last real corporate sponsor we had if I’m not mistaken was Camel cigarettes (obviously appealing to the higher classes there), whereas The Masters has IBM and Mercedes Benz.

With corporate sponsorship or the mythical ‘olympic inclusion’ comes wokeism, drug testing, dress codes, sweeping mandates.

Some people’s dream, my nightmare. There is freedom in obscurity.

Totally off topic but I sometimes wonder if we should even be looking for other life in the universe. We put our info on voyager 1&2. One day an intergalactic tax man and social credit score accessor will be heading to our rock, smirking at each other. “These backwater fools should’ve kept their heads down”

 

[WillieRackam]

you should run for president
you talk alot of words but make no point
no disrespect intended (peace)

I've actually [not "millennial actually" but "actually actually"] been asked by muckety mucks in the world of politics to run for office. Here's my standard reply ...

"I will NEVER run for office. To be a successful politician, you can only be a "part-time truth-sayer" or else you will never get elected, let alone re-elected. It takes all kinds of people to make the "world go 'round"; I am NOT one of "those kinds of people", I am one of "my kinds of people".

Barrack Obama, Jeff Merkley, Ben Westlund, John Kroger, etc. have all benefitted from my largesse [i.e., "for free"] in recent times. Decades ago I was a county level [2 counties] co-chairman of a Presidential primary candidate at the age of 17. I won't belabor my success then because you are "already falling asleep" reading this, but our candidate won in our 2 counties whilst losing by a landslide statewide.

I always honestly and clearly speak my mind. I've already made a number of points, if you haven't read closely enough to see 'em [communication is, after all, a two way street, i.e., "message sent & message received"] ... perhaps there is another reason?

No disrespect intended either

Stay in touch!

 

[WillieRackam]

I just noticed your post, read a few lines and plan to "double back" and read it all. I'm too busy goofing off, etc. and want to give it the attention it deserves. If you will "bear with me" you will find that everything I write in these forums does [at least eventually ] apply to the game and/or culture of billiards. However, I am "loquacious" ...

Btw, I couldn't help but read just a couple of more lines [I'm also "insanely curious"] and you've planted the seed for a little more info and "food for thought" than I had originally planned. Many thanks!

FYI [didn't want to overuse my "btw's" ]. I am not sayin' that you misused the word critique, BUT I will thank you for using it since that will be a springboard for something else I want to share with my billiard friends [and others in the billiards world]

Sorry, I need to get back to goofing off, but ... I'll Be Back [w/ apologies to Arnold Schwarzenegger (sp?)]

I came back today to reply but "bbb"'s comment caught my eye and I "reallocated" my time to respond to "him/her/they" ...

So, I'll try to "double back" tomorrow. [Lotsa stuff goin' on in the world these days and billiards is not the most pressing or important matter at hand]

 

[Minnesota Phat]

dnschmidt said:
Right, pool isn't sleazy enough in most people's eyes let's celebrate its sleaziness. A sure way to attract corporate sponsorships. The last real corporate sponsor we had if I’m not mistaken was Camel cigarettes (obviously appealing to the higher classes there), whereas The Masters has IBM and Mercedes Benz.

True.
Pro billiards can’t thrive from without major sponsorship, and that major sponsorship is not billiards related sports equipment. It has to be sponsorship outside of the sporting industry be banking, tech, travel, insurance, etc. These companies want their brand name associated with a positive image.

Aren't Fanduel and Draftkings partnered with the NBA? Is this encouragement of betting on basketball sullying the reputation of the NBA, and preventing the NBA from finding sponsorships?

I suspect that you guys didn't read much in this thread, but I'll repeat: I'm using "hustling" as a term of art to mean staking games, or to mean spectators betting on games. I disapprove of conning and cheating and aggressive sharking (although some trash-talking in pro matches would make those matches much more interesting to the casual pool player).

Who and what have made pool more popular?

Minnesota Fats, Efren Reyes, Earl Strickland - the most popular players all have a colorful history of "betting" on games. "The Hustler" sparked a boom of interest in billiards as well. Efren's entire aesthetic has its roots in trying to appear harmless, so that people would agree to play him for money.

I think sponsors avoid pool because the no-fun crowd has eliminated a lot of the fun and excitement from the game of pool. Do you honestly think that Fanduel, Draftkings, and alcohol companies would avoid sponsoring pool, if pool became a popular betting sport?

What other sport is so obsessed with trying to turn itself into a Rated G Disney movie?

 

[middleofnowhere]

I came back today to reply but "bbb"'s comment caught my eye and I "reallocated" my time to respond to "him/her/they" ...

So, I'll try to "double back" tomorrow. [Lotsa stuff goin' on in the world these days and billiards is not the most pressing or important matter at hand]

It "IS" here. When my world was the pool room, we didn't care what was going on outside and we liked it that way.