Brunswick's Evolution

TATE said:
Here's some additional:

Below is a scan of the Spring, 1939 catalog. It shows the Carom King and it's possibly the introduction.

Also, I am pretty sure the Willie Hoppe Titlist was introduced in 1941, because the 1940/41 catalog still pictures the Carom King with the old logo and the Medalist Professional. These changed to Willie Hoppe's in 1941 I believe but I don't have that particular catalog.

Chris

Ps. Scott, when you can edit your web site, let's do it - I'll prodicve some quality scans.
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Thanks Chris - that explains some things. The Carom King was in 1939, but indistinguishable from the Model 26 1/2 because of the old decal, so it had the squarish decal only for 1940?

My 41/42 catalog shows the Titlist, but I was giving the Blue Book the benefit of the doubt with its claim of 40/41.

I'm looking forward to getting the catalog info on the web-site. Problem is when I went from PC to Mac, found that my provider, Homestead, doesn't have software for the Mac - bummer. Every time I see one of these catalogs on ebay, I offer to pay the winning bidder for copies of Titlist pages, and every time...zero response. Is there some sort of secret catalog cult?
 
Here's a 41-45 ebony Hoppe Professional, and an ebony 1-piece Model 26 1/2
 

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runscott said:
Here are labels for a few of the cues mentione above. All are tough except the Hi-Run. Another tough one, not included, is the "Titlist Snooker".
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which of these models had veneers?
 
merylane said:
which of these models had veneers?
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Good question, especially since the catalog shows veneers on the Hi-Run pic! Also, some catalog pics only show 2 veneers on the Titlist, and the Blue Book says th 26 1/2 had 2 veneers. I've personally never seen a Brunswick with 2 veneers.

Following had 4 veneers:

Model 26 1/2
Carom King
Titlist
Hoppe Professional
 
runscott said:
Thanks Chris - that explains some things. The Carom King was in 1939, but indistinguishable from the Model 26 1/2 because of the old decal, so it had the squarish decal only for 1940?

My 41/42 catalog shows the Titlist, but I was giving the Blue Book the benefit of the doubt with its claim of 40/41.

I'm looking forward to getting the catalog info on the web-site. Problem is when I went from PC to Mac, found that my provider, Homestead, doesn't have software for the Mac - bummer. Every time I see one of these catalogs on ebay, I offer to pay the winning bidder for copies of Titlist pages, and every time...zero response. Is there some sort of secret catalog cult?
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I have a real 1939 catalog and I paid like $150 or more bucks for it. It's got all the stuff, balls, tables, chalk, etc. They probably don't want the pages copied and sold. You, of course, can have whatever I have but we should ID it so it can't be resold easily. That's why I put my ID on catalog stuff - I hate to have someone sell copies of my stuff to collectors when I will give it to them free.

I also have an original Palmer first catalog that was in a case with a cue I bought. To me it was worth more than the cue. I have some other original catalogs people have given me too.

The old catalogs aren't too great because they're not in color so you can't see veneers, etc. - UGH!

Chris
 
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TATE said:
I have a real 1939 catalog and I paid like $150 or more bucks for it. It's got all the stuff, balls, tables, chalk, etc. They probably don't want the pages copied and sold. You, of course, can have whatever I have but we should ID it so it can't be resold easily. That's why I put my ID on catalog stuff - I hate to have someone sell copies of my stuff to collectors when I will give it to them free.

I also have an original Palmer first catalog that was in a case with a cue I bought. To me it was worth more than the cue. I have some other original catalogs people have given me too.

The old catalogs aren't too great because they're not in color so you can't see veneers, etc. - UGH!

Chris
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Your explanation makes sense. If I was asking them to reproduce the entire catalog I could definitely see that as a concern.

I think pics of the pages with Carom King, Titlist and Hoppe Pro would be great for now - I will edit the web-site using an old p.c. I have access to.

As we've discussed, it's very tough to 'date' old Brunswick cues based solely on their labels. For example I have id'd four distinctly different blue Willie Hoppe Professional labels, then the more common green and white one, the black one, etc. The word "Brunswick" in the label was the key for dating them - I dug through ads, catalogs, various Brusnwick products, noting the year for various examples of how "Brunswick" was printed. That was how I came up with '1941-45' for the first one, etc. Surprsingly, the catalogs were a BAD source for this information - seems they used old label or cue photos in some cases. There is also the possibility that old labels were used on cues after Brunswick had already changed advertising to a new variant of the "Brunswick" logo. Who knows? There were two different labels used in the 1950's, but only one of them shows up in advertising and on products other than Titlist-based cues. Both use characteristics of labels before and after, so determining which came first is tough - I decided to use butt and joint characteristics to take a best guess.

The actual cue descriptions in the catalog are also very helpful, especially during the "no-bumper" years. There are actually even more variants of the label on the Titlist 1-piece cues, including two for the initial "curly B" label (not on my site yet).
 
runscott said:
Nice labels - do you have pics of the points?
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Of course, but posting them would be pointless since you have me blocked and can't see my posts anyways.

Jim
 
runscott said:
I don't hold grudges. I've only used the 'ignore list' when people were on my *ss and it didn't look like they ever planned to let go. My mistake, thought you had let it go.
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Let what go?? you were the one with the problem, all I did was try to help out someone who was uninformed. You got great advice and mad all in one, I don't sweat ignorance, just try to help out.

Jim
 
runscott said:
Thanks Jimbo, for the advice and the *ss-reaming you gave me, OVER A YEAR AGO. Damn, you must be bored. I'm going out - have fun with your 'Who did I fight with in 2005?' search.
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I really can't stress enough how *WE* didn't fight, you however did throw a hissy fit and claim you had me on ignore which as we all know is/was a lie, now if I showed my a$$ like you did I think I'd be trying to spin it as well, I'm glad you've moved on. Have a nice day.

Jim
 
Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!

I really appreciate the great photos an history lesson,I hope you guys
continue. This is great!!!!!!! Thanks
Pinocchio
 
Moving right along here, I appreciate the contributions of pics and history by Runscott, Bogey, and Jimbo.

Several have shown the white labels. Chris' ebony 26 1/2 and Jimbo's cues.

Here's what the Blue Book shows:

White label (clear field) 1800's - early 1900's

Red Label (clear field) - 1906 - 1920 (like my wedge cue)

Gold label, Red Field - 1921 - 25 (like my 26 1/2's)

Green Label, red or yellow field (1926 - 1939)

Does anyone have evidence that this is not accurate?

Also, does anyone know of a source for replacement labels for restorations? I think I remember the Stellinga's mentioned they replaced some labels in their restorations.

Chris
 
TATE said:
Moving right along here, I appreciate the contributions of pics and history by Runscott, Bogey, and Jimbo.

Several have shown the white labels. Chris' ebony 26 1/2 and Jimbo's cues.

Here's what the Blue Book shows:

White label (clear field) 1800's - early 1900's

Red Label (clear field) - 1906 - 1920 (like my wedge cue)

Gold label, Red Field - 1921 - 25 (like my 26 1/2's)

Green Label, red or yellow field (1926 - 1939)

Does anyone have evidence that this is not accurate?

Also, does anyone know of a source for replacement labels for restorations? I think I remember the Stellinga's mentioned they replaced some labels in their restorations.

Chris
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what about the propeller ones? ..... made in france.
 
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