Buddy Hall - 9-Ball Rules

[Alex Kanapilly]

Why not make it call shot? I never understood why 9 ball & 1 Pocket don't require you to make the ball you intended in the pocket you intended. Why do we reward slop at the highest level of play?

Call shot in one pocket? Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[Pushout]

Pushing out just seems weird to me, to be able to do that any time during the rack without taking a foul, as many times as you want, as long as it's not after another push

When your opponent pushes, it becomes up to you to respond, with a shot or a safe. Your opponent would, theoretically, be pushing to your weaknesses, if he's gauged your game properly. And it's as long as there has been no previous foul, not just a previous push. Once a player pushes out, it becomes a chess match as to who will make the first mistake. I suppose you could say the same for one-foul-ball-in-hand, but to me, it isn't the same. Nobody says you have to push, it's an option.

 

[Cuebacca]

Why ? do you think their is only one lucky roll per game? with that rule the luckier you are the better since after one push your back to one foul. Heck I could even hook you just so you had to burn your one push out.

I don't like

Would you really let me to the table just to burn my pushout? In certain cases I suppose it would be worth it to do that; in other cases, perhaps not.

To be honest though, I prefer Texas Express. I was just trying to compromise.

To answer your question, on average I don't think there is more than 1 lucky hook per rack when good players are playing. Good players don't miss balls that often anyway, right?

If the races can be made longer, the lucky rolls will have less of an effect on the outcome. If the races are short, I'm more concerned about getting screwed by a money ball snapping in against me on the break. That's a lot more painful to me than a lucky hook, even if doesn't happen as often. At least I have the opportunity to kick when I'm hooked.

 

[Cuebacca]

When your opponent pushes, it becomes up to you to respond, with a shot or a safe. Your opponent would, theoretically, be pushing to your weaknesses, if he's gauged your game properly. And it's as long as there has been no previous foul, not just a previous push. Once a player pushes out, it becomes a chess match as to who will make the first mistake. I suppose you could say the same for one-foul-ball-in-hand, but to me, it isn't the same. Nobody says you have to push, it's an option.

I might be confused about the rules here. Are you saying that I can push, and then you can push back right after that?

 

[Cuebacca]

Maybe there should just be some Pushout tournaments and some Texas Express tournaments. We'll never have everyone agreeing on one or the other. Has there really been zero Pushout tournaments since Texas Express became the norm? Do any pros ever match up using Pushout rules these days? I don't really get it. If there are some pros that like Pushout, why aren't they playing it?

 

[Pushout]

I might be confused about the rules here. Are you saying that I can push, and then you can push back right after that?

No, a push is considered a foul, just as a cue ball in a pocket scratch or a table scratch, where no ball hits a rail are considered fouls. Any two consecutive fouls awards ball in hand to the incoming player.

 

[Cuebacca]

No, a push is considered a foul, just as a cue ball in a pocket scratch or a table scratch, where no ball hits a rail are considered fouls. Any two consecutive fouls awards ball in hand to the incoming player.

Ah, yes! OK, I knew the rule, but I had just worded my post incorrectly. I stand corrected; thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Pushout]

Ah, yes! OK, I knew the rule, but I had just worded my post incorrectly. I stand corrected; thanks for clearing that up.

Just to be clear, if you scratch I should not push, as it would give you ball in hand anywhere.

 

[Pushout]

I really think that misconceptions of the two-foul-pushout rules are the main reasons why many don't like the game. You need to know the rules in order to play the game correctly. I've taught people to play it who were "raised'' on Texas Express and many of them liked the pushout game much better after understanding the strategy behind it. Granted, it's an entirely different mind set.

 

[Black-Balled]

Then please address how one can see it is logical to push-out when someone plays you safe. Please don't come back w/ the retort of someone crapping into a safe, there are plenty of times safes aren't crapped into...

I can't think of any other situation where, if a player doesn't like his options, he can move the CB w/ out a significant penalty.

I know! I am still wondering about the above. You are right, there are plenty of times safes aren't crapped into and it is illogical to be allowed to roll out!

An I also can't think of any other situation where, if a player doesn't like his options, he can move the CB w/ out a significant penalty.[/QUOTE]

 

[Pii]

Would you really let me to the table just to burn my pushout? In certain cases I suppose it would be worth it to do that; in other cases, perhaps not.

To be honest though, I prefer Texas Express. I was just trying to compromise.

To answer your question, on average I don't think there is more than 1 lucky hook per rack when good players are playing. Good players don't miss balls that often anyway, right?

If the races can be made longer, the lucky rolls will have less of an effect on the outcome. If the races are short, I'm more concerned about getting screwed by a money ball snapping in against me on the break. That's a lot more painful to me than a lucky hook, even if doesn't happen as often. At least I have the opportunity to kick when I'm hooked.

But what about the rest of us?

Yes also agree that if the race is long enough I don't mind OFBIH but most aren't long enough these days. We most be playing different caliber players. The ones I play accidentally hook me all days long and can't break worth a darn. ;-)

Saddly I can't kick ;(

 

[Aaron_S]

This is obviously something that can be debated all day long, but the recurring thought that comes to me is that 9-ball basically is what it was created (and later modified) to be. Simply stated, it is a fast game that, due to its very nature is full of exciting twists and turns. If the goal was to come up with a game that was fun and entertaining and required a fairly high skill-level to play properly, then I think Texas Express 9-ball fit the bill perfectly.

Clearly, the best player will not always win at 9-ball, and I, like many other pool enthusiasts, would prefer to see the pros play a more skillful game. My personal opinion, however, is that we should switch to a more skillful game rather than try to turn 9-ball into something it probably can't be. Even if you could get all the call-shot, rollout, and break-order issues sorted out in a manner that pleased everyone (yeah, good luck with that), you would still have all of the issues surrounding the rack. I'm sorry, but the finals of a professional tournament shouldn't be decided based on which player is dropping a wing-ball more consistently.

IMO, we need a game that takes the emphasis off of rack-reading and puts it back on breaking, problem-solving, ball-pocketing, cueball control, and defense. I do think a rotation game can fit that bill as well as 14.1 did, but 9-ball just has too many deficiencies. Maybe 10-ball is the answer, I don't know. It's definitely a step up from 9-ball.

Aaron

 

[Cuebacca]

But what about the rest of us?

Yes also agree that if the race is long enough I don't mind OFBIH but most aren't long enough these days. We most be playing different caliber players. The ones I play accidentally hook me all days long and can't break worth a darn. ;-)

Saddly I can't kick ;(

For the rest of us, I guess it's sort of a catch 22. I imagine that games of Pushout 9-ball take significantly longer per game than Texas Express format, on average. So if our races are short now, time constraints would probably force them to be even shorter if we played Pushout.

Matches between two C or two D players would probably take painfully long too. The extra time it takes for lots of pushing, and fewer ball-in-hands would add up fast I imagine.

Plus if we remove too much luck from the game, it will probably cause the tournament fields to thin. Just "thinking out loud" here.

 

[Pii]

For the rest of us, I guess it's sort of a catch 22. I imagine that games of Pushout 9-ball take significantly longer per game than Texas Express format, on average. So if our races are short now, time constraints would probably force them to be even shorter if we played Pushout.

Matches between two C or two D players would probably take painfully long too. The extra time it takes for lots of pushing, and fewer ball-in-hands would add up fast I imagine.

Plus if we remove too much luck from the game, it will probably cause the tournament fields to thin. Just "thinking out loud" here.

It was the need to speed up the game for TV that brought us Texas express rule.
Yes it takes longer but since 90% of the luck is already removed you don't need the longer matches to even out rolls. Besides must of us don't play on TV :thumbup:

 

[Cameron Smith]

I know! I am still wondering about the above. You are right, there are plenty of times safes aren't crapped into and it is illogical to be allowed to roll out!

An I also can't think of any other situation where, if a player doesn't like his options, he can move the CB w/ out a significant penalty.

[/QUOTE]

I'll take a crack at it.

The way I see it is that, the player pushing out is still at a disadvantage, as the incoming player has the option to pass it back.

That said, I understand where you are coming from. I like Niel's solution that you have to call safe when playing a safety or else the incoming player has the option. However as SJM has mentioned this elminates two way shots. And it requires a referee to determine whether or not the incoming player is infact snookered as it is sometimes a very close call.

 

[Pii]

I know! I am still wondering about the above. You are right, there are plenty of times safes aren't crapped into and it is illogical to be allowed to roll out!

An I also can't think of any other situation where, if a player doesn't like his options, he can move the CB w/ out a significant penalty.

[/QUOTE]


Listen everyone is freaking about push out 9ball. I'm betting must of you that are against it never played it.

Bottom line is; it was played that way for YEARS and believe me it works out just fine. It has just as much skill as the current game but less luck. The only shot missing is the "kick to save your life after the dog before you just got lucky as hell shot" :thumbup: (And yes it even saves you from yourself at times.)

Also bring back the spot shot! Now there's a skill missing from the current game.

 

[Fatboy]

With all due respect to Buddy Hall I disagree with his idea(partially)


I have never liked spotting balls made on the break and the 1 ball if it rolls up table into the kitchen getting spotted too, because with 2 or 3 balls on the spot and the incomming player having BIH behind the head string is at a disatvantage off the breakers foul. PLEASE TELL ME WHY THAT IS FAIR TO PENEALIZE the incomming player who DIDNT foul, he has no chance of running out after the breaker fouls. terrible rule!!! If the breaker fouls I want a shot to get out, period!! With these rules the guy who fouled is guaranteed another shot, that negates the foul, it might give him a advantage. Someone who fouls should pay, if he fouls I want BIH and a shot to win, let him pay for the foul. WHATS WRONG WITH THAT, the guy who fouled needs to pay RIGHT??


thats my biggest beef,


I perfer express rules and push out after the break and 3 fouls(adds some stragity to the game), and no soft breaks(3 balls OB's past head string).

with my perfered rules 9 ball is a fast paced run out game with packages for better players and when the guy in the chair gets a chnce he can come back with packages. Making 9 Ball a call shot game is like making one pocket now 2 pocket(what ever that means???) it just changes up the whole idea of the game. If you dont want run out pool dont play 9 ball pick a different game. Like 8 ball take what you make on the break, call pocket, and last pocket then there is no luck. Dont ruin a simple runout rotation game. Trying to make 9 ball some it isnt dosent make sence to me.

I been around along time and watched 9 ball evolve into express rules, that happened because the old rules wernt as good, lets not digress back in history.

 

[Pushout]

I'll take a crack at it.

The way I see it is that, the player pushing out is still at a disadvantage, as the incoming player has the option to pass it back.
[/QUOTE]

This is, a lot of times, what the player originally pushing out wants. The best player back where I lived in NY said he always pushed out to a safe. He always wanted the incoming player to pass. The original pusher can control the game this way, providing he knows enough about his opponent's game to have a high percent chance of knowing what the opponent will do in a given situation. And, there is almost always more than one option, so it can still be a tricky proposition. You can still play two way shots, but you have to be prepared to respond to a push in that situation. Granted, it doesn't immediately give ball in hand, but suppose the incoming player misses the shot in this situation? Then you have the option of making him shoot again and getting ball in hand. The strategies are very different, but they are still there and, I think, require more knowledge and skill than simple one-foul-ball-in-hand-anywhere.

 

[SJDinPHX]

With all due respect to Buddy Hall I disagree with his idea(partially)


I have never liked spotting balls made on the break and the 1 ball if it rolls up table into the kitchen getting spotted too, because with 2 or 3 balls on the spot and the incomming player having BIH behind the head string is at a disatvantage off the breakers foul. PLEASE TELL ME WHY THAT IS FAIR TO PENEALIZE the incomming player who DIDNT foul, he has no chance of running out after the breaker fouls. terrible rule!!! If the breaker fouls I want a shot to get out, period!! With these rules the guy who fouled is guaranteed another shot, that negates the foul, it might give him a advantage. Someone who fouls should pay, if he fouls I want BIH and a shot to win, let him pay for the foul. WHATS WRONG WITH THAT, the guy who fouled needs to pay RIGHT??


thats my biggest beef,


I perfer express rules and push out after the break and 3 fouls(adds some stragity to the game), and no soft breaks(3 balls OB's past head string).

with my perfered rules 9 ball is a fast paced run out game with packages for better players and when the guy in the chair gets a chnce he can come back with packages. Making 9 Ball a call shot game is like making one pocket now 2 pocket(what ever that means???) it just changes up the whole idea of the game. If you dont want run out pool dont play 9 ball pick a different game. Like 8 ball take what you make on the break, call pocket, and last pocket then there is no luck. Dont ruin a simple runout rotation game. Trying to make 9 ball some it isnt dosent make sence to me.

I been around along time and watched 9 ball evolve into express rules, that happened because the old rules wernt as good, lets not digress back in history.

My 9 ball playing days were just about over anyway when TE rules came along. I, Myself (and many of my contemporaries) despised the new,made for TV rules so much, we gave up on 9 ball and began playing almost exclusively one pocket.
Fast forward 20 years to todays top players, (guys now in their 30's and 40's)
none of them have ever competed at anything but TE rules.
When I was still somewhat competitive, I found that if I could get these new young guns to play the old two shot foul rules, I could still play with most of them with very little weight. This proves Buddy's point (at least in my eyes) that jump cues and TE rules have almost removed strategy from 9/10 ball.
Surely a blend of the two can be found. Personally, I think alternate breaks are the only way to go ,whatever rules are played. Winner OR loser breaks is a fiasco. JMHO

Dick

 

[Black-Balled]

...I found that if I could ...play the old two shot foul rules, I could still play with most of them with very little weight. This proves Buddy's point (at least in my eyes) that jump cues and TE rules have almost removed strategy from 9/10 ball...
Dick

Really? The fact that you were never required to kick a ball or be penalized for playing poor shape didn't help?