Buddy Hall talks "Deflection"

[maha]

links courses are in places where there is more land. as many also have another tee farther back called the tips. not just the blues or whatever each course uses. and 7000 is often there. but most public courses are in the mid 6,000 range. from the back tees.
most gambling is from the whites. as most gamblers are not real golfers same with pool players.
places like bandon oregon and torry pines ca. have 7000 plus courses and those are the kind of places that bettors go to.
and vegas has a handfull of them.
and are open to public play. not cheap by any means .

golf just like pool you see the big bettors betting their own money and making their own games. and are not top players or even close to being labeled as real good.

ou when i said public i meant open to the public not just publicly owned.

 

[Black-Balled]

i play both games with the same shaft. and cuestick. do fine at both and dont see where hitting a billiard ball needs a stiffer shaft or a heavier one or whatever.

A billiard ball is significantly heavier than a pool ball and it travels much farther in the course of a game.

Nobody goes running in loafers by choice!

 

[JPB2]

yes in a way i am. but have done really well in my life so it is not substantial enough to be bothered with smaller bets.
plus no longer a spring chicken.

most courses i played were links and public courses, many 7000 yards. when gambling you play what they want, and from the tips to whites or blues.

my above post was to say that its not the equipment that determines how well you play, it can only help a little bit.

I’m coming around more and more to your position, even though I think good equipment is better and newer is often better. That said, I had an internet conversation with a very good golfer some time ago. Good D1 player, got through Q School but couldn’t keep a card, US Open qualifier. So a real good player. He said if you approached him on the first tee and offered play with your regular ball or take one stroke off your score and play a rock two piece distance ball, he’d be teeing up the rock hands down. Obviously at the highest level you wouldn’t play a ball that cost you any strokes, but the differences in equipment are pretty small.

 

[Fore Rail]

I’m coming around more and more to your position, even though I think good equipment is better and newer is often better. That said, I had an internet conversation with a very good golfer some time ago. Good D1 player, got through Q School but couldn’t keep a card, US Open qualifier. So a real good player. He said if you approached him on the first tee and offered play with your regular ball or take one stroke off your score and play a rock two piece distance ball, he’d be teeing up the rock hands down. Obviously at the highest level you wouldn’t play a ball that cost you any strokes, but the differences in equipment are pretty small.

Don't come around too far with Maha's position. He just doesn't really know what he is talking about.

Length, lie angle, shaft flex & grip size have always mattered. Nowadays there's even more to the equation with launch monitors & all the numbers that comes with.

Unless your physical size puts you into everything off the shelf there is no way in hell anyone can just pick up a random set of clubs and play the same.

 

[JPB2]

Don't come around too far with Maha's position. He just doesn't really know what he is talking about.

Length, lie angle, shaft flex & grip size have always mattered. Nowadays there's even more to the equation with launch monitors & all the numbers that comes with.

Unless your physical size puts you into everything off the shelf there is no way in hell anyone can just pick up a random set of clubs and play the same.

Yes and no. I get fitted etc…. I think the launch monitors and optimizing spin and launch has helped the pros a lot. And I remember the old days where guys would tweak their lifts and lies. I don’t think it matters as much for many players as they think. So yeah get fit…

 

[Fore Rail]

Yes and no. I get fitted etc…. I think the launch monitors and optimizing spin and launch has helped the pros a lot. And I remember the old days where guys would tweak their lifts and lies. I don’t think it matters as much for many players as they think. So yeah get fit…

Let me tell you a quick story...

I was fitted for a set of Mizuno Irons many years ago. At the time I was playing a Rifle steel shaft around 6.7 frequency. Specs were simple, standard lie & length, stated lofts, standard grip & the Rifle 6.7.

Clubs came in and I couldn't hit them for shit. Ball wouldn't get off the ground. I took them to my club builder for him to take a look. He told me to give them more time because they were new so on and so forth. I did not back down and left them with him for a diagnosis.

He gives me a call and says I found the problem - the shaft frequency is 8.0!! Now to put that in perspective my driver shaft at that time was a 7.7. So no wonder I couldn't hit the darn things!!

He rebuilt them for me, made sure the lofts were right & we went over the lie angles while test hitting shots. After that I was a happy camper.

So not only is it important to get fit, it is also very important to get what you ordered spec wise from that fitting.

It does matter - immensely.

 

[Cornerman]

Not me - Mike’s a good guess.

My two cents: (moving the) “backhand” is for shafts with their pivot point nearer the bridge hand; (moving the) “fronthand” is for shafts with their pivot point nearer the grip hand. Neither method works for all shots without user input (slight adjustments).

pj
chgo

Could have also be Ron Shepard or Bob Jewett. I’d be shocked if it wasnt one you four (three now).

 

[Cornerman]

I'll have to ask my friend about the origin.

There is a difference between the two in how they're used.

If your friend says anything other than the Newsgroup rec.sport.billiard around the year 2000 for the origin of the term and method of Front Hand English, then he wasnt around when it originated. Several of us on this forum were around at that time. Fronthand English was deduced due to the emerging presence of lower squirt/deflection cue and our greater understanding of how squirt worked. I am crediting Ron Shepard in 2001in his paper "Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Squirt But Were Too Afraid to Ask" for coining the term Front Hand English for lower squirt shafts.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/Shepard_squirt.pdf

The term Backhand English was popularized by Hal Houle on the internet starting around 1997, also on those newsgroups, but he always said that he learned the technique from Ralph Greenleaf. So it was around long before the internet. Another earlier internet term for it is the Aim & Pivot method, which was shared on those Newsgroups around 1993ish. I believe a diagram in a Michael Phelan book from over 100 years ago that Bob Jewett has shared is one of the earliest indication of using the backhand to align the english for deflection compensation.

 

[jasonlaus]

If your friend says anything other than the Newsgroup rec.sport.billiard around the year 2000 for the origin of the term and method of Front Hand English, then he wasnt around when it originated. Several of us on this forum were around at that time. Fronthand English was deduced due to the emerging presence of lower squirt/deflection cue and our greater understanding of how squirt worked. I am crediting Ron Shepard in 2001in his paper "Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Squirt But Were Too Afraid to Ask" for coining the term Front Hand English for lower squirt shafts.

http://www.sfbilliards.com/Misc/Shepard_squirt.pdf

The term Backhand English was popularized by Hal Houle on the internet starting around 1997, also on those newsgroups, but he always said that he learned the technique from Ralph Greenleaf. So it was around long before the internet. Another earlier internet term for it is the Aim & Pivot method, which was shared on those Newsgroups around 1993ish. I believe a diagram in a Michael Phelan book from over 100 years ago that Bob Jewett has shared is one of the earliest indication of using the backhand to align the english for deflection compensation.

I'll let you know the correct answer, haven't talked to him yet.

Just because you and the others hadn't heard of it, doesn't mean it wasn't around.

To be fair, he has mentioned Hal numerous times, just not relating to this and his mentions weren't necessarily crediting Hal, just that he mentioned some things.

You probably know the guy Im referring to or at least heard of him.

Most of what Hal talked about came from the Philippines/asia

 

[jasonlaus]

He said he first read about it in 91, been teaching it since 95

Front hand

 

[Cornerman]

I'll let you know the correct answer, haven't talked to him yet.

Just because you and the others hadn't heard of it, doesn't mean it wasn't around.

To be fair, he has mentioned Hal numerous times, just not relating to this and his mentions weren't necessarily crediting Hal, just that he mentioned some things.

You probably know the guy Im referring to or at least heard of him.

Most of what Hal talked about came from the Philippines/asia

There is zero chance that Front Hand English came from anywhere else but Rec Sport Billiard. He would have to have been part of it. I don’t mean to sound like a dick, but the people talking about it in 1999 2000 2001 would’ve been people on the Internet that were engineers and science people that happen to be discussing with Hal Houle directly about backhand English AND discussing Predator. The term could not possibly have existed without those two things in combination.

Even if he knew Hal before Hal figured his way to get on the Internet, Hal wouldn’t have known about front hand English. it wasn’t his term. Hal didn’t believe that it made a difference if you had a low squirt or not. it was always backhanded English with him, even with low squirt cues. I was good friends with Hal. And this is one area we disagreed on. Maybe your friend means 2001 and 2005. Zero sense at all if it was a decade earlier. The front hand English term came about due to a very specific crossroad that did not exist in 1991.

 

[jasonlaus]

There is zero chance that Front Hand English came from anywhere else but Rec Sport Billiard. He would have to have been part of it. I don’t mean to sound like a dick, but the people talking about it in 1999 2000 2001 would’ve been people on the Internet that were engineers and science people that happen to be discussing with Hal Houle directly about backhand English AND discussing Predator. The term could not possibly have existed without those two things in combination.

Even if he knew Hal before Hal figured his way to get on the Internet, Hal wouldn’t have known about front hand English. it wasn’t his term. Hal didn’t believe that it made a difference if you had a low squirt you or not. it was always backhanded English with him.I was good friends with Hal. And this is one area we disagreed on. Maybe your friend means 2001 and 2005. Zero sense at all if it was a decade earlier. The front end came about a very specific crossroad did not exist in 1991.

The fact that my guy teaches some of the best on the planet and he's NEVER lied to me...sorry to hurt your feelings.

He only mentioned Hal, not as an expert, but as whatever

 

[Cornerman]

The fact that my guy teaches some of the best on the planet and he's NEVER lied to me...sorry to hurt your feelings

Give his name. We’ll have a discussion I think he’s got the wrong dates.

 

[jasonlaus]

Give his name. We’ll have a discussion I think he’s got the wrong dates

Ill ask him. He's one of the greatest historians of the game. I mentioned the dates you suggested, he was adamant about it, I have the highest regard for you and your thoughts(seriously) if he tells me something different, I gotta go woth him.

He mentioned Neville Chamberands book 1991

Said he didnt understand it till years later and started teaching it in 95.

 

[Cornerman]

Ill ask him. He's one of the greatest historians of the game. I mentioned the dates you suggested, he was adamant about it, I have the highest regard for you and your thoughts(seriously) if he tells me something different, I gotta go woth him.

He mentioned Neville Chamberands book 1991

Said he didnt understand it till years later and started teaching it in 95.

Thanks, Jason. There’s like one person… One name and if that’s the name… Brother, I’ll say yeah I can understand that, but it would be really a weird coincidence.

The one name… Don the Preacher Feeney. He understood the value of low deflection back in the 1980s, but he didnt understand as we came to understand how to truly make a low deflection cue.

 

[jasonlaus]

Thanks, Jason. There’s like one person… One name and if that’s the name… Brother, I’ll say yeah I can understand that, but it would be really a weird coincidence.

The one name… Don the Preacher Feeney. He understood l The value of low deflection back in the 1980s, but he didnt understand as we came to understand how to truly make a low deflection cue.

My guy is familiar with all of them, I feel like you 2 would be the greatest melding of the minds. I don't doubt your contribution to OUR game, I just don't think some people have been given the platform they deserve

 

[Cornerman]

My guy is familiar with all of them, I feel like you 2 would be the greatest melding of the minds. I don't doubt your contribution to OUR game, I just don't think some people have been given the platform they deserve

I’m happy to say I’m wrong if you say he’s legit. Looking forward to finding out more.

 

[maha]

never heard of front hand english until i saw it here. and i have been around.

but ive and many others used back hand english ever since i started playing in pool rooms.

and it was called that way back then. 1960's and early 70's players me included called it that.

that was back east. when i went out west, i dont think i ever heard either term used. but all decent players seemed to use it somewhat.

but also center line of the cue ball and only a half tip of englsih was used much more than now. and the average decent player in pool rooms played much better than those in them now.