Building Better Players

iba7467

iba7467

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe that league handicapping tends to hinder player development. There is really no benefit in becoming a better player if at your current handicap you are able to win slightly more than 50%. There is also the likelihood that individuals will sandbag to keep there level down.

The questions I pose are:

Would it be beneficial to make a reward system within a league for progressing through the skill levels?

Should this be done in the form of a discount for moving up a skill level?

Would this work better by paying higher payouts to higher skill levels?


Just venting for a moment as I see our local level of play maintaining rather than increasing. Lately, the only players that appear to be getting better are very few of us who actually try and younger players who do not have this league handicap mentality. For example, a male skill level 2 (means they can't run 3 balls) once told my wife (also skill level 2) that it's ok, he used to play bad too. This was immediately followed by his teammates telling him, "You idiot, you still play bad." Handicapping hurts player's desire to improve.
 
yeah, I'm young...but I still have the "only the strong survive" mentality when it comes to pool
 
While your post rings pretty true, most league players don't want to do anything other than play league. They for the most part just want a "fun" night out with friends and such and really have no desire to get better.

I could see the National type league play (APA for example) being plagued with sandbagging issues. Sandbagging is something that will always occur. Just as an example my league changed affiliations (now ISPA sanctioned) and point systems at the start of the season and I threw a few games to keep my handicap down to help keep the overall team cumulative handicap down untill we got several weeks into league then the handicaps would start evening out. We use a ten point system and the highest you can be is a 10 if you were near perfect (PRO/Master). Sometimes just a couple of points difference in handicap can be the difference in a win/loss for the team for a round. I did it for the team (We are 3rd out of 16 teams). I knew I would still end up one of the top ten players in the league (currently 8th) even if I threw some points away and I knew I'd end up a 9 eventually which I am now.

Out of the 100+ players in my league only about 25% of them at the MOST would play any type of tournaments elsewhere. We have a couple (2-3) of near Master type players, about 8-10 AA players, myself included, maybe a few dozen A players and the rest at B or C level. It's for the most part a fun league and I use it as a way to play on the varying conditions of bar tables/etc and to get out of the house. :D

On a good note we do finally have a few newer/younger players coming into league that show some actual desire to seriously improve their game and it's nice to see.
 
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iba7467 said:
I believe that league handicapping tends to hinder player development. There is really no benefit in becoming a better player if at your current handicap you are able to win slightly more than 50%. There is also the likelihood that individuals will sandbag to keep there level down.

The questions I pose are:

Would it be beneficial to make a reward system within a league for progressing through the skill levels?

Should this be done in the form of a discount for moving up a skill level?

Would this work better by paying higher payouts to higher skill levels?


Just venting for a moment as I see our local level of play maintaining rather than increasing. Lately, the only players that appear to be getting better are very few of us who actually try and younger players who do not have this league handicap mentality. For example, a male skill level 2 (means they can't run 3 balls) once told my wife (also skill level 2) that it's ok, he used to play bad too. This was immediately followed by his teammates telling him, "You idiot, you still play bad." Handicapping hurts player's desire to improve.
Click to expand...

I don't think handicaps hurt every player's desire to improve. Players who care more about winning than about improving will manipulate the handicap at the expense of their actual skills. But players who are students of the game will see going up in handicap as a milestone to be achieved. I think overall, the effect cancels out. People who seriously love the game will work on it and improve. People who play for other reasons (something to do while drinking, enjoy the socializing that accompanies the playing, trying to advance to regionals/nationals by whatever means necessary, or because they used to care about the game and now it's just a habit), won't improve all that much.

I believe what would REALLY motivate people to try to improve would be for the number of local non-handicapped tournaments to increase, along with their payouts. If enough beginner-level people would show up and play in these, then it would be very lucrative to become a half-decent player who wins them now and again when they're on or when the field is weak, just like online sit&gos have done for poker. Once one is a decent player who wins sometimes, it would be very lucrative to become a strong player who wins frequently. Once one reaches that level, it would be very lucrative to become an A player who places high in regional-level tournaments (which would be more numerous if more people were reaching this level of serious play). Once one reaches that level, it would be very lucrative to become a semi-pro who wins regional tournaments. Once one reaches that level, many will want to compete for a spot on a big-time pro-level tour, like the highly sought-after PGA pro tour card.

I think all pool really needs to make that last paragraph happen is an influx in people willing to show up and play small, cheap, local tournaments. But there just aren't enough folks interested in the game. Until the players who are serious about trying to be good get less few-and-far-between, I think it doesn't matter what else happens, pool is going to stay small-time.

-Andrew
 
I think the powers that be want to keep a "check" on the better players and not allow them to dominate play.

This is because it is a business and they want to make as much money as possible. The more people playing, the more profit for the league and the businesses where leagues are played.

If the team competition is not so stiff (no teams made up of only the best players), then lesser skilled players will have more opportunities to win, they will be happy with this, and will continue to play league and spend their money.

Same kind of thing at small weekly money tournaments. If the same 3 players win every week, then the lesser skilled players will get discouraged and not show up anymore! (Then the sharks have no money to win!)

The better players want the $$ from more people playing in each tournament, so it is to the better player's advantage to intentionally play lousy every once and a while so some of the lesser skilled players can win from time to time. Let one of these people get in the money once every few months and they will show up for every tournament.

One time we had a weekly tournament where once a month, no one who had won 1st place in the last two months was allowed to play that night. This kept the sharks away for that night. The place was packed. There were some beginner players who would only show up that night and would not play on the other nights!

So bottom line: If you make the competition less stiff, you will get more lesser skilled people playing.
 
I think it just comes down to the need for a better way to even up handicaps during matches. Anyone who thinks that a three has a shot to beat a six or seven handicap player is smoking something and ought to share. The second problem, caused by this first problem, is the cap on the number of handicaps that can play in an evening. IF handicaps worked as the APA claims, there would be no need for such a cap. 9 ball works well as its all based on balls pocketed. 8 ball needs to get away from the games won handicap and find another way.

tim
 
Handicaps don't build better players, BUT that is not their intent. Their intent is to level the playing field. Whether or not they do that is another question that could be interesting.

I play in two leagues (one strong, one weak) that have no handicaps. 5 people on a team, the two with the best winning percentage play each other and so on down the line. Since I've been in these leagues my play has improved immensely. So much so that the weaker league has become somewhat a lark. The stronger one still remains a challenge.
 
Improving

There is also the likelihood that individuals will sandbag to keep there level down. Yep, Always going to happen in any handicapped league.

The questions I pose are:

Would it be beneficial to make a reward system within a league for progressing through the skill levels? No, lower level players won't think that is fair. There are already rewards for getting better if you are not focusing on handicaps. You should be honored your handicap goes up as someone is recognizing your better play. Handicaps going up are the plan to have a growing league. The APA has the 23 rule so that the league can grow by bringing in new players which will get better. If handicaps did not go up the league would not grow and a growing league benefits us all. Handicaps going up will happen for any player that has the desire to get better, some players don't care to get better. I can't count how many times I have started the session off by saying we need someone that really can't play and then after a few sessions I have to let that player go because they got better and their handicap went up. Doesn't the whole pool industry benefit if if there are more pool players of all levels?
Want to play without handicaps then play some no handicap tournaments.
 
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iba7467 said:
I believe that league handicapping tends to hinder player development. There is really no benefit in becoming a better player if at your current handicap you are able to win slightly more than 50%. There is also the likelihood that individuals will sandbag to keep there level down.

The questions I pose are:

Would it be beneficial to make a reward system within a league for progressing through the skill levels?

Should this be done in the form of a discount for moving up a skill level?

Would this work better by paying higher payouts to higher skill levels?


Just venting for a moment as I see our local level of play maintaining rather than increasing. Lately, the only players that appear to be getting better are very few of us who actually try and younger players who do not have this league handicap mentality. For example, a male skill level 2 (means they can't run 3 balls) once told my wife (also skill level 2) that it's ok, he used to play bad too. This was immediately followed by his teammates telling him, "You idiot, you still play bad." Handicapping hurts player's desire to improve.
Click to expand...


IMO its like this
Pool or Billiards is the game and hobby. What you do with it shouldnt be defined by one aspect of that hobby.
In other words APA or VNEA or TAP or whatever shouldnt or isnt the actual hobby. Its just something players do.
I am sure Lance Armstrong would take a ride with his family and might do it once a week. However that is only part of his game.
Pool leages shouldnt dominate someones pool hobby. IMO that is one of the reasons that people disbarage against leagues in general. They have taken the league as their hobby.

The goal should be to enjoy pool and to become better at the hobby. League gives people an outlet to play together and to add competition into it. To get better you need to play more often away from league play.

Some people get it and practice. Others do not. Even with all of this I realize that some people just play league for group acceptance. They really dont play pool as a hobby. Those are more likely to worry about their handicaps.

Just my take
 
First off , if we're talking 'generally' . . .

Most league players don't actually try and get better , even if they say they want to. Ultimately they just want to play and have a few drinks out with friends. Most won't even show up for a free lesson (trust me I know) AND if they do and don't run the next rack , they go right back to shooting they way they did before.

Most league players really want to win thier matches.

Most league players have never sandbagged and don't know how to and still win.

You can't make people try and get better if they don't want it as much as you want them to. (trust me there again)

Cheaters cheat and you can't stop them from trying.

IMO.

:)
 
I think that if you offer a high enough cash incentive for accomplishments then even the ones who participate in the manipulation of the system will conform. In the league I am in I am hoping to get a resolution passed where the shooter of the week gets $10 for every time they do it and the MVP gets $50+. Since there are a lot of teams in this league, this is an amount that will not affect the payouts where anyone will notice except the winners. I also think that this will make some of the top notch players play to their full potential as there is an immediate reward for doing so while giving the lower echelon players something to strive for.
 
As long as the handicapping system stays as it is, there is no payback to playing better. You might "be better" but look worse, but as posted before, there are so few who really know how to sandbag properly....


tim
 
stikapos said:
As long as the handicapping system stays as it is, there is no payback to playing better. You might "be better" but look worse, but as posted before, there are so few who really know how to sandbag properly....


tim
Click to expand...

Probably a pretty good chance those who can sandbag "properly" are not doing it in a league, but are out hustling. Most people accused of sandbagging are just having a bad night. Most who try to sandbag and win, wind up losing.
 
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