butt circumference and grip cradle???

B

bbb

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as i am transitioning from a "death grip" (exageration thank god :smile:)
to a soft cradle
i notice when i at "home " ie finish the stroke the butt has hit the heel pad part of my hand with the line of knuckles pointing up
i have 2 cues which i havent completely decided on which will be my long term player
one cue has a smaller circumference butt than the other
(also a feel of a more foward balance even though the balance points are identical)
on that cue i have a tendency to want to grip it tighter because it feels "small"
i feel i have less control when i hold it loose becaues it feels like its "flying in the wind " in my hand "
i guess i have a built in (thru years of bad muscle memory) of sense of distance from the cue to my hand
however that cue looks better:embarrassed2:
and id like to use it
so after this very long winded post


should butt circumference be considered in the cue you use??
 
bbb said:
as i am transitioning from a "death grip" (exageration thank god :smile:)
to a soft cradle
i notice when i at "home " ie finish the stroke the butt has hit the heel pad part of my hand with the line of knuckles pointing up
i have 2 cues which i havent completely decided on which will be my long term player
one cue has a smaller circumference butt than the other
(also a feel of a more foward balance even though the balance points are identical)
on that cue i have a tendency to want to grip it tighter because it feels "small"
i feel i have less control when i hold it loose becaues it feels like its "flying in the wind " in my hand "
i guess i have a built in (thru years of bad muscle memory) of sense of distance from the cue to my hand
however that cue looks better:embarrassed2:
and id like to use it
so after this very long winded post


should butt circumference be considered in the cue you use??
Click to expand...


First, you're the player, not your cue.

Next, I am going through something similar as you. I've recently switched back to my other cue because it's a beautiful cue and I should play with it which has a thinner butt circumference and a more forward weight, plus it's an inch longer. Talk about a change!

It's now going into the second month and I'm still adjusting; and after going through all the psychological stuff we go through when we make a change like that, I am really starting to love the cue.

Changes that big really do take some time, and there is no question that you will go through some struggles.

My suggestion to you is to just focus on following through on every shot and give the cue a chance. If you make sure you follow through on every shot, you won't feel so much like your cue is flying in the wind, because as you follow through, your arm will still be moving forward with the cue.

If you had a previous habit of gripping tightly, you may have been holding back your follow through which could negatively affect your stroke timing. Maybe you can use the nicer cue as a tool to fix a flaw in your game.
 
A larger diameter will limit the amount of wrist you can use in the stroke... Since wrist action is used by many as a power source the change can be huge when making a swap.....

The larger diameter does tend to help stabilize the wrist and promote a straighter cueing action so there is an upside and a downside....

Less power and straighter or more power with more chance of a deviation.....

It's all about your style of play and which way "you" need to go to benefit..
 
The Renfro said:
A larger diameter will limit the amount of wrist you can use in the stroke... Since wrist action is used by many as a power source the change can be huge when making a swap.....

The larger diameter does tend to help stabilize the wrist and promote a straighter cueing action so there is an upside and a downside....

Less power and straighter or more power with more chance of a deviation.....

It's all about your style of play and which way "you" need to go to benefit..
Click to expand...

Just wondering if you know of any players in particular who experienced what you wrote, because I'm not experiencing that with my switch; and the butt diameters are significantly different.

I find that the change in balance was more of a significant difference for me. There were comfort issues in relearning how to cradle the cue but I don't feel like the thinner butt had an effect on my wrist stabilization, nor did I feel like it affected any wrist action with any significance.
 
FranCrimi said:
Just wondering if you know of any players in particular who experienced what you wrote, because I'm not experiencing that with my switch; and the butt diameters are significantly different.

I find that the change in balance was more of a significant difference for me. There were comfort issues in relearning how to cradle the cue but I don't feel like the thinner butt had an effect on my wrist stabilization, nor did I feel like it affected any wrist action with any significance.
Click to expand...

It's due to the physiology of the wrist and hand and there may have to be a radical change in diameter to cause this effect depending on your grip on the cue....

Also if you are using a true cradle you may not the diameter much.....



Diameter changes are one possible solution to purpose tremors as they cause the hand geometry to change as the player will fill their hand more fully....

With the cradle you are not so much as gripping as many players....

I suspect, but have not had the chance to speak to Stevie, that his resurgence and his minimization of his shake/purpose tremor is a function of the sport grip he has built up on his break cue and player....

I can name one player that swears that effect is reality but it's Earl so most people tend to lean away from the idea because of all of the other strange ideas he sometimes has...... I asked him directly if the wrap was to minimize wrist on the break at The Open several years ago, when I was trying different diameters, and he laughed and said I was the only one that had came up with that answer without him telling them about it....

I also know that when I swapped to a D series mcdermott after using predators that I lost power over my original predator even tho I had a 314 on the D series..... Sure there was a balance change as well but I am not so much of a cradler and my stroke has always been very wristy coming thru the ball..... I don't notice weight and balance changes all that much as I use the elbow drop and wrist more so than a pure pendulum.......

I also know I have a purpose tremor in my left hand when picking up small items.... If I pick up a teacup the proper way I would wear part of my tea... A glass that fills my hand removes all tremor......

So long story even longer I am not 100% sure that I am right but I would put it better than 80% if I was giving odds....

Hit em straight,
Chris
 
The Renfro said:
It's due to the physiology of the wrist and hand and there may have to be a radical change in diameter to cause this effect depending on your grip on the cue....

Also if you are using a true cradle you may not the diameter much.....



Diameter changes are one possible solution to purpose tremors as they cause the hand geometry to change as the player will fill their hand more fully....

With the cradle you are not so much as gripping as many players....

I suspect, but have not had the chance to speak to Stevie, that his resurgence and his minimization of his shake/purpose tremor is a function of the sport grip he has built up on his break cue and player....

I can name one player that swears that effect is reality but it's Earl so most people tend to lean away from the idea because of all of the other strange ideas he sometimes has...... I asked him directly if the wrap was to minimize wrist on the break at The Open several years ago, when I was trying different diameters, and he laughed and said I was the only one that had came up with that answer without him telling them about it....

I also know that when I swapped to a D series mcdermott after using predators that I lost power over my original predator even tho I had a 314 on the D series..... Sure there was a balance change as well but I am not so much of a cradler and my stroke has always been very wristy coming thru the ball..... I don't notice weight and balance changes all that much as I use the elbow drop and wrist more so than a pure pendulum.......

I also know I have a purpose tremor in my left hand when picking up small items.... If I pick up a teacup the proper way I would wear part of my tea... A glass that fills my hand removes all tremor......

So long story even longer I am not 100% sure that I am right but I would put it better than 80% if I was giving odds....

Hit em straight,
Chris
Click to expand...

As wacky as Earl can be at times I find that he's very insightful and an extremely sensitive player, which is why he picks up on so much stuff. I would tend to believe it if Earl said it. I had a conversation with him a few months back that scared me because he was talking about how the table he was practicing on felt like the weather was about to change within the next day or so. Now that may sound crazy to some people but I can feel that too sometimes, but I always kept it to myself thinking people would think I was nuts if I were to predict weather changes on a pool table a day away.

Also, I do feel that I can shoot elbow drop shots with more ease now with my more forward balanced cue. Maybe the smaller diamater butt and the wrist motion has something to do with that. I'll have to pay more attention to it.

As always, thanks for the info, Chris.
 
bbb...Since you are already 'tweeking' your setup and delivery process, pick one of the two cues (doesn't matter which one) and work with it exclusively for the next couple of months. Use it for your mother drills, and use it for your competitive play. Just as learning speed control will enhance your ability to "adjust" to different table conditions quickly (via learning how to 'feel' you cue in your hand), it will also make it easier to "switch up" cues (just like when I easily used your cues to demonstrate during your lesson, with no problems)...even though you will still have your main player.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

bbb said:
as i am transitioning from a "death grip" (exageration thank god :smile:)
to a soft cradle
i notice when i at "home " ie finish the stroke the butt has hit the heel pad part of my hand with the line of knuckles pointing up
i have 2 cues which i havent completely decided on which will be my long term player
one cue has a smaller circumference butt than the other
(also a feel of a more foward balance even though the balance points are identical)
on that cue i have a tendency to want to grip it tighter because it feels "small"
i feel i have less control when i hold it loose becaues it feels like its "flying in the wind " in my hand "
i guess i have a built in (thru years of bad muscle memory) of sense of distance from the cue to my hand
however that cue looks better:embarrassed2:
and id like to use it
so after this very long winded post


should butt circumference be considered in the cue you use??
Click to expand...
 
grip issue

To the OP, the stick diameter may not be the issue at all. If your wrist and/or hand are extended slightly forward as you prepare to strike the cue ball, then you have already narrowed the space between your palm and the cue stick as you follow through. This will limit the amount of power you might otherwise have been able to transfer into the stroke with your wrist action.

Make sure that your forearm, wrist and hand are in a straight vertical alignment, perpendicular to the cue stick as you connect with the cue ball.

If your forearm is extended forward as you connect with the cue ball and not at the 90 degree, perpendicular position, this may also limit the space between the palm and cue stick, further limiting your wrist action.

You also want to make sure you are not gripping the cue too firmly or grabbing the cue stick with your palm in full contact with the stick.

Cradleing the cue stick will allow for the necessary space between the stick and your palm to allow for the proper wrist action.

I would suggest you have an experienced player/instructor observe your technique or video tape yourself to assess the situation.
 
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FranCrimi said:
As wacky as Earl can be at times I find that he's very insightful and an extremely sensitive player, which is why he picks up on so much stuff. I would tend to believe it if Earl said it. I had a conversation with him a few months back that scared me because he was talking about how the table he was practicing on felt like the weather was about to change within the next day or so. Now that may sound crazy to some people but I can feel that too sometimes, but I always kept it to myself thinking people would think I was nuts if I were to predict weather changes on a pool table a day away.

Also, I do feel that I can shoot elbow drop shots with more ease now with my more forward balanced cue. Maybe the smaller diamater butt and the wrist motion has something to do with that. I'll have to pay more attention to it.

As always, thanks for the info, Chris.
Click to expand...

Fran:

Actually, that (the bolded part) is no accident. Just as with any swinging implement, if the balance is brought forward, it tends to radically alter the swing itself. A forward-balanced cue tends to "pull" your arm forward with the momentum, and in the process, pulling your elbow down.

Think of it in a slightly different sense -- a hammer. Let's say you have a hammer with a very light balsa-wood handle, and a heavy head (let's say a lead mallet). When swinging this thing, part of your motion includes a pulling motion (pulling towards your body) to keep the hammer swing on line with the object you're trying to hit. Otherwise, if you didn't do that, the centrifugal force of that heavy weight being concentrated in the head of the mallet would, in the natural arc of the swing, cause your arm to fly outward and away from you, missing the object you're trying to hit.

Now, let's say you distribute that weight evenly throughout the striking implement. Let's say you're using a lead rod or lead pipe instead. As you go through your swing, you find yourself using less "pulling" motion (especially if you grip the pipe towards the middle), and instead more of an accelerated downward force as you strike the object. The centrifugal force is less pronounced, since you're gripping closer to the balance point of the striking implement.

Likewise, in a cue, the balance point of the cue does affect the "swing" of it, albeit the swing is more like throwing a javelin underhanded, than of swinging a hammer. A javelin that is too forward-weighted tends to cause the person to feel like he/she is "pushing" a bolt through the air, rather than a javelin that "helps" the throw by "living" in the hand itself.

I got this info, by the way, from a friend that was a champion javelin thrower, and the parallels to swinging a cue are uncanny. I consider myself a "calico" pool player, because I use a snooker stance, yet with a closed bridge (index-overlapping-middle finger style), and yet with a preference for rear-weighted cues, a la 3-cushion. Yup, a calico pool player -- that's me! :D

-Sean
 
Hey Sean,

Thanks for that great info --- and it makes perfect sense. I'm really liking this cue with a more forward balance point. I guess I'm sort of a mixture of things too.
 
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