Buying on the For Sale forum. Friends and Family and sweeping paranoia

[mikemosconi]

So no problem paying paypal fees but tax fraud is A.O.K. in your book? WTF happened to the morals in this country?

Render unto Caesar.

Perfectly legal to accept payment under F&F. it is the seller's option if a buyer is willing. Every tax lawyer's job is to advise their client of any legal means to reduce tax liability. I am talking about selling one or two cues during a year- not about running a business and selling several cues every year- in that case -I would advise someone to not do business via F&F- it would be an obvious attempt to avoid tax liability.

Gov't. greed has created this new internet income tax reporting burden and subsequent individual tax liability. What was once considered hobby income is now considered business income by those in power who have now spent our tax dollars into an inflation situation that actually taxes every single American no matter what their income level.

I am not looking to make this a public political debate. Many people sell and buy a few cues here on AZ and on other internet sites as a function of a hobby and Not as a business. Those people have a right to know how the existing government , in the name of " American rescue" has now changed the tax laws to declare hobbyists as business people and how we can legally defend ourselves against yet another government intrusion into our lives.

Please stop acting like judge and jury.

 

[maha]

f&f is just that. and because you made lots of deals on paypal and made money from you doesnt mean now you can justify cheating them.

they do the f&f thing for a good thing and to build consumer relations. you take advantage of it to cheat them out of a commission for their services..

which down the road will lead to removing the freeby and charging everyone.

basically you are insisting on cash being sent as your customers have no recourse. all retailers ask for payment in advance but most all accept cards that can be revoked or challenged in case of disagreement or fraud.

 

[Johnny Rosato]

A better question is can I be ripped using goods and services, either as buyer or seller?
Example #1 - Lamar posts a beautiful cue for sale. Fred buys and they both agree on goods and services.
Fred recieves package and 'claims' he recieved 2 pieces of poor quality, used mop handle, even though he did
recieve the cue Lamar sent. Who loses?

Example #2 - Lamar indeed sends the 2 pieces of poor quality, used mop handle instead of the cue he advertised. Who loses?

 

[ShootingArts]

A better question is can I be ripped using goods and services, either as buyer or seller?
Example #1 - Lamar posts a beautiful cue for sale. Fred buys and they both agree on goods and services.
Fred recieves package and 'claims' he recieved 2 pieces of poor quality, used mop handle, even though he did
recieve the cue Lamar sent. Who loses?

Example #2 - Lamar indeed sends the 2 pieces of poor quality, used mop handle instead of the cue he advertised. Who loses?

Johnny, I think the point you are trying to make is that there are risks to dealing long distance. You are 100% correct. Almost impossible to make these transactions risk free and trying to minimize risk can make a deal drag on seemingly forever!

Hu

 

[ShootingArts]

A better question is can I be ripped using goods and services, either as buyer or seller?
Example #1 - Lamar posts a beautiful cue for sale. Fred buys and they both agree on goods and services.
Fred recieves package and 'claims' he recieved 2 pieces of poor quality, used mop handle, even though he did
recieve the cue Lamar sent. Who loses?

Example #2 - Lamar indeed sends the 2 pieces of poor quality, used mop handle instead of the cue he advertised. Who loses?

A story, those that hate stories pass on.

I was at a short course at Tulane's microcomputer center. The instructor was a nice guy out of Phoenix that I had classes with a few times before. We were talking and he mentioned he got to just cruise a bit on the backroads. He commented that all the stuff for sale at the end of drives, sometimes long drives, was put out and not stolen. People didn't do that around Phoenix.

That started us talking and I mentioned I used to keep a hundred dollar bill in my wallet just to flip out as a deposit when I saw something I really wanted and I would come back and pick it up in a day or three. He asked what happened if the seller didn't have the goods when I came back. I said, "He either has my hundred dollar bill in his hand or I call Vito.

The instructor asked, "Vito? Vito who?" Obviously he was puzzled. I told him people like Vito didn't have last names. Even more puzzled he turned to the person running the department. "Vito doesn't have a last name?" Bless her, she caught it on the fly! "That is right, Vito doesn't have a last name!"

If a long distance deal goes south for enough coin, Vito is always an option!

Hu

 

[Johnny Rosato]

A story, those that hate stories pass on.

I was at a short course at Tulane's microcomputer center. The instructor was a nice guy out of Phoenix that I had classes with a few times before. We were talking and he mentioned he got to just cruise a bit on the backroads. He commented that all the stuff for sale at the end of drives, sometimes long drives, was put out and not stolen. People didn't do that around Phoenix.

That started us talking and I mentioned I used to keep a hundred dollar bill in my wallet just to flip out as a deposit when I saw something I really wanted and I would come back and pick it up in a day or three. He asked what happened if the seller didn't have the goods when I came back. I said, "He either has my hundred dollar bill in his hand or I call Vito.

The instructor asked, "Vito? Vito who?" Obviously he was puzzled. I told him people like Vito didn't have last names. Even more puzzled he turned to the person running the department. "Vito doesn't have a last name?" Bless her, she caught it on the fly! "That is right, Vito doesn't have a last name!"

If a long distance deal goes south for enough coin, Vito is always an option!

Hu

Vito may or may not be my cousin! lol
I've had 15 or so deals on here and over 100 on ebay, (tripod0054).
I've never had a deal go wrong.

 

[maha]

most that post regularly and have a rep wont screw you. but you may have a difference of opinion on what you received. and most will work it out.

doing business with a newbie or someone with a known attitude leaves you hoping for the best and may get the worst and then its your own fault.

with any deal define all the outcomes and what happens. if you just buy it and hope, you are toast when a disagreement occurs.

 

[Cue Alchemist]

This is a much needed thread. I've only done a couple deals in that section.
I think your always going to get people out to rip you off. When it's basically built on trust.
Most of us are genuine. But those real high end cues. Can't imagine how nerve wracking that is. Even shipping a cue today is not like it use to be. Seems to be, more risk these days!!!

 

[vapoolplayer]

First of all, The Govt. changed all the ruled this year in terms of taxing internet payments. What was once $20,000 in internet income has been reduced to only $600 in internet income that pay Pal, e bay, etc, WILL now report in 2022 to the IRS on any goods and services pay pal transaction, once you reach $600 revenue in a given year This was buried in the Democrtats American "rescue" package which passed this year.

So- if you sell a cue for, say $1200 and accept Pay Pal Goods and Services- you will receive a 1099-K from Pay Pal next January - it will require an additional tax form on your return to claim the income and you will owe taxes - up to 35% based on your income tax bracket, on the profit from that sale- BTW- if you do not have a receipt for YOUR original purchase of that cue, the entire $1200 is considered profit and you owe tax on the entire amount from Pay Pal. If you can prove a loss on the sale or a smaller profit- you will need original purchase receipts on the cue.

Therefore, Pay Pal F&F now takes on a whole new meaning- those transactions are Not reported to the IRS- each seller needs to weigh their own tax situation in evaluating cue sale payment terms due to this new IRS ruling for 2022.

Here is a practical example- I own a cue worth $2000, I sell it here and accept Pay Pal G&S for $2000- I bought it 10 years ago in a pool room off a guy for $800. I obviously have no receipt form that transaction. I accept Pay Pal goods and services- all goes well and the new owner loves the cue! My 1099K from Pay Pal and my 25% tax bracket yields $500 that I owe the IRS come tax time on that one sale.

Thus is the new reality folks- I was always against Pay Pal F&F- but times are a changing!

Nothing actually changed on paper. You have always been required to pay taxes on anything you sell for a profit. Personal or not. This just now requires a major electronic way people receive money to report the transactions.

You also don’t need a receipt from 10 years ago. You are not required to show a receipt. You can list the cost of the goods. As long as it’s a reasonable value, you’re fine.

Your practical example was still required to pay taxes on that profit before any of the reporting went into effect.


All this does is require people to do one of two things:

- if you sell something for less than you paid, just show it as a loss at tax time. No receipt required.

- if you sell something at a profit, it gets added onto your profit for the year. It may or may not be offset by deductions and such


For anyone who’s recreationally selling cues, it won’t be hard to show a loss.

For anyone doing it as a “side hustle,” you were always required to report.

 

[vapoolplayer]

Perfectly legal to accept payment under F&F. it is the seller's option if a buyer is willing. Every tax lawyer's job is to advise their client of any legal means to reduce tax liability. I am talking about selling one or two cues during a year- not about running a business and selling several cues every year- in that case -I would advise someone to not do business via F&F- it would be an obvious attempt to avoid tax liability.

Gov't. greed has created this new internet income tax reporting burden and subsequent individual tax liability. What was once considered hobby income is now considered business income by those in power who have now spent our tax dollars into an inflation situation that actually taxes every single American no matter what their income level.

I am not looking to make this a public political debate. Many people sell and buy a few cues here on AZ and on other internet sites as a function of a hobby and Not as a business. Those people have a right to know how the existing government , in the name of " American rescue" has now changed the tax laws to declare hobbyists as business people and how we can legally defend ourselves against yet another government intrusion into our lives.

Please stop acting like judge and jury.

This is not what’s happening.

Those hobbyists were always supposed to show the cues they sold on their taxes.

If you sold a used couch on the side of the road last year, on paper you should have reported it and shown it as a loss or profit on your taxes.

This is in the same ballpark as states now requiring sales tax on internet sales.

We got away with it for years. The gov’t is just catching up years later.

 

[mikemosconi]

This is not what’s happening.

Those hobbyists were always supposed to show the cues they sold on their taxes.

If you sold a used couch on the side of the road last year, on paper you should have reported it and shown it as a loss or profit on your taxes.

This is in the same ballpark as states now requiring sales tax on internet sales.

We got away with it for years. The gov’t is just catching up years later.

EVERYTHING has changed on paper- The prior reporting requirements for Pay pal, E bay, etc. for Gov.t reporting on internet sales WAS $20,000 in revenue in one year- it is now $600! That IS on paper- it is presently the new law for 2022--- it is being challenged as being way too unreasonable but as of now the new reporting requirements stand.

Why do you think that Ebay has required anyone with $600 in sales this year to provide their Social Security number? For the past 20 years they did not do that.
BTW- you cannot just "say" what you think an item was in terms of cost basis for profit reporting- if audited- you need to show proof- a receipt.

The gov't. is " just catching up" ? We " got away" with stuff? Some folks might just have a different perspective on that view- I know that I do.

I guess the gov't. is just " catching up" on regulating gasoline production too- how dare we "got away" with $2 a gallon for so long

 

[CLAUD]

if audited- you need to show proof- a receipt.

This is the crux of the matter. The IRS isn't going to audit every person that gets a 1099-K. You should honestly report gains and losses based on the facts (truth) and worry about verification when and if it is needed. You don't send copies of receipts with your tax return. The occasional seller who trades every now and then won't have a problem. Those with a 1099-K for thousands or tens of thousands of dollars should keep a good set of books, like any legit business.
If it's a hobby for you, be cautious. If you consistently report loses and the IRS determines it's a "hobby" they will deny the loss for tax purposes. "Hobby" losses are not allowed.
It will be interesting to see if the IRS starts issuing CP2000 letters to every EBAY seller that gets a small 1099-K. They know many, if not most, are just cleaning out their closet or garage. Most of these sellers will just ignore the 1099-K. Will the IRS send every single one of these sellers a CP2000 audit letter? I doubt it, but time will tell. This will be an enormous undertaking for the agency that is already understaffed.
Let's say you are an individual filing a 1040. and you get a 1099-K for $5000.00. The last thing you would want to do is report that as "other income" on the face of the 1040. You would pay your marginal tax rate on the whole $5000.00. But if you file a Schedule C, self employment income, with your return and claim your cost of sales and other legitimate expenses, you only pay tax on the net. However you also pay self employment taxes on the net.
Any way you slice it, this is creating an enormous additional workload on, not only the taxpayer, tax preparers, those generating the 1099-K, but the IRS as well. They should have left the thresh hold alone or reduced it to $10,000.00,, not $600.00.
Forgive my ramblings, but every year it becomes more evident we are being ruled by idiots. Yes, ruled. there is a constant barrage on freedom.

 

[mikemosconi]

It will be interesting to see if the IRS starts issuing CP2000 letters to every EBAY seller that gets a small 1099-K. They know many, if not most, are just cleaning out their closet or garage. Most of these sellers will just ignore the 1099-K. Will the IRS send every single one of these sellers a CP2000 audit letter? I doubt it, but time will tell. This will be an enormous undertaking for the agency that is already understaffed.
Let's say you are an individual filing a 1040. and you get a 1099-K for $5000.00. The last thing you would want to do is report that as "other income" on the face of the 1040. You would pay your marginal tax rate on the whole $5000.00. But if you file a Schedule C, self employment income, with your return and claim your cost of sales and other legitimate expenses, you only pay tax on the net. However you also pay self employment taxes on the net.
Any way you slice it, this is creating an enormous additional workload on, not only the taxpayer, tax preparers, those generating the 1099-K, but the IRS as well. They should have left the thresh hold alone or reduced it to $10,000.00,, not $600.00.
Forgive my ramblings, but every year it becomes more evident we are being ruled by idiots. Yes, ruled. there is a constant barrage on freedom.

The problem with the 1099K at $600 is that it will be computer checked automatically against each SS number that reports to the IRS, so there is actually, I think, a good chance that audit letters will go out to individuals who do not report even one single cue sale above $600 that was paid for on any goods and services payment site.

So there is actually, unless Congress has the good sense to raise the internet revenue reporting ceiling well above $600, quite a bit of tax liability possible for all of us here that sold one or a few custom cues this year and accepted an Ebay or Pay Pal G&S payment

I personally sold one cue on Ebay above the $600 line, but I actually sold it for less than my cost and do have the original record of purchase. So I will file a schedule C and claim the loss, and be done with it for 2022 with no worries of an audit letter- hopefully

Every one here who sells even one custom cue a year or potentially may sell a custom cue in the next few years should be writing their Congress Reps to raise the 1099-K reporting ceiling well above $600- I agree- perhaps $10,000 would be an acceptable number.

 

[vapoolplayer]

EVERYTHING has changed on paper- The prior reporting requirements for Pay pal, E bay, etc. for Gov.t reporting on internet sales WAS $20,000 in revenue in one year- it is now $600! That IS on paper- it is presently the new law for 2022--- it is being challenged as being way too unreasonable but as of now the new reporting requirements stand.

Why do you think that Ebay has required anyone with $600 in sales this year to provide their Social Security number? For the past 20 years they did not do that.
BTW- you cannot just "say" what you think an item was in terms of cost basis for profit reporting- if audited- you need to show proof- a receipt.

The gov't. is " just catching up" ? We " got away" with stuff? Some folks might just have a different perspective on that view- I know that I do.

I guess the gov't. is just " catching up" on regulating gasoline production too- how dare we "got away" with $2 a gallon for so long

You were still required to report those sales on your own.

But people weren’t and how they are requiring PayPal and others to report it.


Every cue you sold, very piece of furniture, etc…..

Was always supposed to be accounted for. And if you turned a profit, it’s part of your income.

And no, if audited you don’t need to show a receipt as long as it’s realistic. Happens all the time. You think the IRS doesn’t understand that not everyone keeps a receipt from 10yrs ago? Or that you won’t lose a receipt?

You are definitely not educated on what “changed.”

 

[vapoolplayer]

Among others, the “Cohan rule” applies to many things when you’re audited without receipts.

 

[vapoolplayer]

Not to mention, you’re not going to get an audit because you sold 5 cues and on your taxes you report the cues cost more than you sold them for.

If you sell 200 cues this year and claim you sold them all at a lost, then yes, while unlikely, you might get an audit. And they’ll want some sort of reasonable proof or explanation of the cost.

But, the only change is that now PayPal and such will be reporting goods and services purchases.

You as an individual should have already been reporting this, especially if you sold at a profit.

If you bought a cue 15yrs ago at a yard sale for a great deal for $100, and then sold it yesterday for $2500, you were already required to report that on your taxes before PayPal was required to report goods and services.



This “change” is geared towards people running what is essentially a side business. Not recreational selling.

 

[hang-the-9]

I'll preface this with a simple question, would anyone here mail out your valuable cue to someone before having access to the amount you sold it for? So you mail it, let someone go over it with a fine toothed comb, nervously wait to get scammed or they just have buyers remorse and don't want it now. Me, NO.

Does any business do that ? No. You have to pay to get your item. Now I'm not a retailer, I'm an individual seller representing my item as clearly and honestly as possible along with relying on my feedback to back me up as are all or most on this forum and others. Along with that is a certain degree of faith that has to be had to buy and sell on" unregulated" forums for the most part. This isn't Ebay or anything like it.

SO, to the friends and family option vs Goods and Services. First, my feedback speaks for itself. I've recently tried to sell the cue I have listed as we speak twice . Both times Paypal is holding payment for using Goods and Services. My account is verified with PayPal and I've never once had a negative transaction so why they insist on holding payment is beyond me when others I know do not have this issue. That being said, this is why I ask for friends and family. I've sold tons of items here , on Fb, other forums my rep is stellar everywhere I sell. So this sweeping paranoia and "don't let anyone make you use friends and family " nonsense is out of hand.

I absolutely will never send an item and wait until delivery of said item to access my funds. Never have I done that in my life and not about to start now. I am a reputable seller and I can promise you my communication and the entire transaction will be perfect. If you want that plus a great deal then buy from me. If you don't, then you don't.

PayPal should tell you why it's holding the funds. Sometimes it's due to how the other person funded the account, if it's through a new account or a credit card, or their bank account that is pending. They wait till it's cleared then send you the money. If this was money they already had in PayPal it would go through right away. If PayPal has to draw the money from elsewhere there can be a delay.

Question is, what's the issue? Wait till you get the money, then send the cue or whatever. It's not nonsense at all, unless you are dealing with people you actually know. Heck there are some people that I do know that I would make it a point to avoid paying without some buyer protection LOL. It's not only to avoid scammers where you get sent nothing, what if as someone said already, there are non-disclosed issue with the "like new item" like missing parts, dents, rips, etc...? Money sent as a friend you don't have any recourse past the other party doing the right thing. In my experience, that is about a 50/50 thing.

 

[mikemosconi]

This “change” is geared towards people running what is essentially a side business. Not recreational selling.

If the "change" from $ 20,000 was not meant for recreational sellers such as most of us here on AZ, why was it "changed" to forcing Pay Pal and E bay to report to the gov't. on ONLY $600 total sales for an entire year! That sounds and is targeting recreational sellers such as us here.

Your argument has no logic- selling $600 worth of stuff in one year is hardly a "side business" - maybe $10,000 in sales but not close to $600!

Also, try telling the IRS that " sorry, I lost my receipts, just take my word for it" during an IRS audit- good luck! The Cohan rule is used mostly for business deductions such as the cost of business meals, etc. Courts usually allow amounts way below a taxpayers estimates under the Cohan rules. Selling cues for $2,000; $3,000, etc now, without receipts of cue purchase; and then trying to convince the courts, when audited, that the cue you acquired 10 years ago cost you close to the amount sold will not be an easy task.

The last Blue book of cue values was printed in 2005.

 

[Fatboy]

most that post regularly and have a rep wont screw you. but you may have a difference of opinion on what you received. and most will work it out.

doing business with a newbie or someone with a known attitude leaves you hoping for the best and may get the worst and then its your own fault.

with any deal define all the outcomes and what happens. if you just buy it and hope, you are toast when a disagreement occurs.

A man’s reputation is what he’s worth.

I’ve been robbed a couple times for small $ by well known cue makers, not once in a cue deal. Funny how that works.

I only deal with people who I know value their reputation. I sleep just fine at night. The bottom feeders will always be there. Having the judgment to pick your spots is on you.

Protect yourself at all times.

Best
Fatboy

 

[maha]

so if you dont want to be held accountable take a check or insist on cash. even then you will be breaking the law if you dont report it. but those things so far are not pursued if small money.
to think they should change the law so you can cheat your taxes is unbelievable.