C.J.'s touch of inside

Here’s the fallacy in this thinking: a “right English mishit” and a “too little left English mishit” produce the same amount and direction of squirt error. You don’t gain any “margin of error” by favoring one side vs. centerball.

This was pointed out when CJ promoted his TOI method here last year - it’s still a fallacy. Maybe next year.

pj
chgo

I didn't think he thought it reduced squirt error. I thought it was all about deadening the cue ball and getting a consistent rebound speed and angle. If you were looking to go left off a rail you would end up going a little left or a little too much left or straight but never to the right. Also slow (slight reverse), slower (too much reverse) or medium (no spin) but never faster (running). The exact reverse of the above applies in cases where inside spin is running English. It would be fast, faster or normal but never accidentally slow. The idea I got from the cd was to never accidentally have any outside spin. But like I said, I didn't hear any of his claims here, just watched the cds. It is clear from watching him play he "deadens" the cue ball more than most. He calls it "floating into position". It appears to be a lot of reverse spin and near center hits. I think it also requires figuring out all the patterns to fit his game. He refers to that as "making the table fit his game". Whatever it is it works for him.

In personal training with him he did not mention TOI at all except to say it was a high end concept that most professional players tend to favor a slight offset inside or outside as opposed to an exact center ball hit.

I have no actual opinion on TOI either way. I mentioned the only time I find use for it. is to make very small angle changes by using deflection to create small angles. I tried using it to create large angles but got way too much inside spin so I only use it where I don't trust my eyes to hit a distant aiming point as much as I trust a straight shot with a very small application of spin.
 
Last edited:
I didn't think he thought it reduced squirt error. I thought it was all about deadening the cue ball and getting a consistent rebound speed and angle.
Maybe he's changed his tune since he was promoting TOI on here (good for him if he has), but "increasing the margin of error" (reducing the effect of stroke/squirt error) was the main feature he promoted when he first started selling it here - the "floating CB" came a little later, as I recall. You can see all his claims by searching for his posts.

pj
chgo
 
Aiming the down the rail shot

Great explanation. On a slightly different subject, I do have one question. The width of the pocket is only two ball widths from exactly straight on, correct? If I am shooting down the rail I only have about half the pocket to work with don't I?

It seems to me to be very hard to create angle approaching the pocket from the side. I really struggle with "cheating the pocket" to create angle coming straight down the rail (an inch or two off the rail).

From straight on you need to hit the hole, the jaw points don’t forgive. When you are an inch or two off the rail only the very outside point on the jaw rejects the ball. From that perspective the jaw welcomes the ball into the pocket. On a ball one inch off the rail if it touches the rail midway between the ball and the pocket it will never be more than an inch off the rail at the jaw and will still go in. The ball two inches off will be slightly less forgiving but does have a modicum more jaw target visible. You need to look at the "effective" pocket and note that its size changes with speed. Consider a ball about 3 inches off the long rail at the middle side diamond. With the cue ball at mid table making the shot a left cut down the rail the, TOI method finds the target line that undercuts the ball. A ball 3 inch off the rail if you shot it so that it’s edge contacted the rail 2 inches before the opening would rebound into the jaw and into the pocket. Aim the ball to about that point. Next shift the cue to the inside, in this case to the left. This is a small shift. Next tilt the tip back towards the initial line. The new cue line points more to the right than the old one. The cue line should still be a hair left of the center of mass of the cue ball. CJ said to now simply accelerate through the cue ball on that line. Trust the stroke and the ball will go in. Two issues plague those who try it for the first time. They don’t have muscle or visual memory of that cue line associated with a ball being pocketed. The second is positioning the vision center. The original alignment to the undercut side of the pocket puts the perspective along that line. The adjusted cue line will feel strange if the perspective stays over the original line. Once I have shifted my cue to the inside line, I orient my perspective to be over and down that line. That line needs my eyes to check straight cueing and so my perspective must be positioned accordingly. If you feel you are directly over and down the cue and it doesn’t feel right, start over. Be precise choosing the original aim line. I determine the final cue line while still up and looking down the original aim line. The shift and tilt back are small moves so my foot on the line does not need repositioning. My perspective needs to be exact though, in order for my feedback to be useful. My eye line needs to be altered to match the shot line in the end when getting down.

For me this was just a starting point. CJ noted that on long shots he had to undercut somewhat. There are a whole different set of principles and completely new understandings that have emerged from this that are an evolution of CJ’s original concept. The evolution doesn’t need a "hammerstroke" like he advises or require adjustments for long shots. These ideas are not an aiming system. The concept grafts onto whatever aiming system uses center ball. The work and graphs of Dr. Dave were invaluable. New ideas like convergence, inflection, and torque line give us new horizons to explore. These are physical concepts, not theories. CJ was a pioneer who made us think differently. He went down one path with his shift in thinking, but he opened up a new world of possibilities.
 
Maybe he's changed his tune since he was promoting TOI on here (good for him if he has), but "increasing the margin of error" (reducing the effect of stroke/squirt error) was the main feature he promoted when he first started selling it here - the "floating CB" came a little later, as I recall. You can see all his claims by searching for his posts.

pj
chgo

Many instructors teach a variety of ways to keep students from getting overwhelmed with the possibilities. Some teach playing with no side spin then gradually introducing a tiny bit. Others say no more than a 1/2 tip, etc. The TOI talks about staying to the inside as much as possible. Learning to get position and plan out patterns without using outside except in rare cases. The idea was a player could learn what to expect and how to get position with fewer options. He also taught to use a constant speed, by doing things like going across and back vs slow rolling to hold for position. One basic speed, one type of control, was easier to master than all of the possibilities. Good or bad, it was at least a totally different approach.

For me, I don't play well with a "weak" game. If I slow roll 3 balls in a row I lose all energy. For some reason I need to play a little more aggressively to stay into the game. I am also not good at slow roll and really soft shots. Then to top it off I play on tables that are not perfectly level and I have to allow for the drift. For me concepts like going across and back, going more rails and shooting into a different pocket and hitting drag shots instead of slow rolls fits my style better.

One thing I did learn from CJ is that there are more ways to play at a high level then one. I appreciate all the great ideas presented here and learn something from them all.
 
From straight on you need to hit the hole, the jaw points don’t forgive. When you are an inch or two off the rail only the very outside point on the jaw rejects the ball. From that perspective the jaw welcomes the ball into the pocket. On a ball one inch off the rail if it touches the rail midway between the ball and the pocket it will never be more than an inch off the rail at the jaw and will still go in. The ball two inches off will be slightly less forgiving but does have a modicum more jaw target visible. You need to look at the "effective" pocket and note that its size changes with speed. Consider a ball about 3 inches off the long rail at the middle side diamond. With the cue ball at mid table making the shot a left cut down the rail the, TOI method finds the target line that undercuts the ball. A ball 3 inch off the rail if you shot it so that it’s edge contacted the rail 2 inches before the opening would rebound into the jaw and into the pocket. Aim the ball to about that point. Next shift the cue to the inside, in this case to the left. This is a small shift. Next tilt the tip back towards the initial line. The new cue line points more to the right than the old one. The cue line should still be a hair left of the center of mass of the cue ball. CJ said to now simply accelerate through the cue ball on that line. Trust the stroke and the ball will go in. Two issues plague those who try it for the first time. They don’t have muscle or visual memory of that cue line associated with a ball being pocketed. The second is positioning the vision center. The original alignment to the undercut side of the pocket puts the perspective along that line. The adjusted cue line will feel strange if the perspective stays over the original line. Once I have shifted my cue to the inside line, I orient my perspective to be over and down that line. That line needs my eyes to check straight cueing and so my perspective must be positioned accordingly. If you feel you are directly over and down the cue and it doesn’t feel right, start over. Be precise choosing the original aim line. I determine the final cue line while still up and looking down the original aim line. The shift and tilt back are small moves so my foot on the line does not need repositioning. My perspective needs to be exact though, in order for my feedback to be useful. My eye line needs to be altered to match the shot line in the end when getting down.

For me this was just a starting point. CJ noted that on long shots he had to undercut somewhat. There are a whole different set of principles and completely new understandings that have emerged from this that are an evolution of CJ’s original concept. The evolution doesn’t need a "hammerstroke" like he advises or require adjustments for long shots. These ideas are not an aiming system. The concept grafts onto whatever aiming system uses center ball. The work and graphs of Dr. Dave were invaluable. New ideas like convergence, inflection, and torque line give us new horizons to explore. These are physical concepts, not theories. CJ was a pioneer who made us think differently. He went down one path with his shift in thinking, but he opened up a new world of possibilities.

The game and how it is played has evolved and there are certainly a lot of ways to approach it. I watched Willie Mosconi play Minnesota Fats in an old video and Mosconi played very upright, jumped up out of a lot of shots and finished with the tip of his cue off the table, sometimes swinging the cue up and to the left after the shot the entire match. Yet he was one of the greatest to ever play the game. I really think natural talent plays a huge role. I just wish I had more of it. :)
 
"With TOI you aim with centerball to hit the far pocket facing, then add a touch of inside so squirt cuts the OB to center pocket."

PJ, no disrespect but this is where you are wrong. The aim is to the undercut side. Sometimes that will be toward the jaw facing and sometimes not. The subsequent shift of the entire cue to the inside, then tilting the tip back towards the line, is not the same as applying side via BHE, FHE or lateral/parallel side. CJ described his move as a lateral shift. He did however describe it as moving the butt first then the tip. He described the new line as being an overcut compared to the old. The acceleration through the ball was to make sure the cueing to the inside would add to the overcut. If the stroke is too slow the extra contact time will result in squerve, plus more spin than wanted. He was wanting to minimize spin by using a blunted contact not a biting one.
 
The game and how it is played has evolved and there are certainly a lot of ways to approach it. I watched Willie Mosconi play Minnesota Fats in an old video and Mosconi played very upright, jumped up out of a lot of shots and finished with the tip of his cue off the table, sometimes swinging the cue up and to the left after the shot the entire match. Yet he was one of the greatest to ever play the game. I really think natural talent plays a huge role. I just wish I had more of it. :)

That was at the end of his career. I think he wasn't as jumpy when he was younger.
 
That was at the end of his career. I think he wasn't as jumpy when he was younger.
In some photos when Mosconi's hair was black he was very low over the ball. Since I never saw him play in the 1930s I don't know whether he played in that position or not.
 
"With TOI you aim with centerball to hit the far pocket facing, then add a touch of inside so squirt cuts the OB to center pocket."

PJ, no disrespect but this is where you are wrong. The aim is to the undercut side. Sometimes that will be toward the jaw facing and sometimes not.
No disrespect to you either, but I think that stuff is beside the point.

The point is that TOI's pocketing instructions are simply the common steps for aiming (at whatever cut angle you like) at center pocket with a touch of side (in whatever direction you like) corrected for squirt - just described in reverse order. The two approaches get you to exactly the same place. Calling one a "plan" to reduce error doesn't really make the result any different or the errors any less.

I've always thought that the real benefit of TOI, the reason players improved with it, was simply its encouragement to pay closer attention to where you hit the CB and what part of the pocket you aim at.

pj
chgo
 
Last edited:
No disrespect to you either, but I think that stuff is beside the point.

The point is that TOI's pocketing instructions are simply the common steps for aiming (at whatever cut angle you like) at center pocket with a touch of side (in whatever direction you like) corrected for squirt - just described in reverse order. The two approaches get you to exactly the same place. Calling one a "plan" to reduce error doesn't really make the result any different or the errors any less.

I've always thought that the real benefit of TOI, the reason players improved with it, was simply its encouragement to pay closer attention to where you hit the CB and what part of the pocket you aim at.

pj
chgo

Conceptually speaking, because I haven't spent much time on TOI --- I know that we all use outside more than inside spin because we mostly play position with the angle of the shot rather than against it.

So it's logical to assume that many of our missed shots occur while applying outside spin. It's also not much of a stretch to assume that applying outside spin can become a habit, and if we do it right, we're not hurt by it, even though it may not be necessary for that particular shot. But if we miscalculate, then we are hurt by it.

I think we can then also say that we've created our own set of margin of error issues dictated by our own tendencies and habits.

Training yourself to use TOI on certain shots where it isn't necessary to use outside can possibly help reduce the number of errors for a player who tends to use outside more often than needed.
 
That was at the end of his career. I think he wasn't as jumpy when he was younger.

It is funny that you mention "jumpy". I was with CJ a few months ago and he was saying "I can't make a ball". I sent him a text to tell him he was literally jumping up out of every shot, uncharacteristic of him, to say the least. He thanked me and credited a change in stance for the comment. He said he was not putting enough weight on his front foot. I don't know if that is the cause or a fix, in fact I have heard both sides of that issue from instructors. But either way it confirms in a practical way what you mention.

He is still very much involved in pool, plays and wins local tournaments every week and teaches. I like him a lot and wish only the best for him.
 
In some photos when Mosconi's hair was black he was very low over the ball. Since I never saw him play in the 1930s I don't know whether he played in that position or not.

Great point. He was clearly older in the video I saw.
 
No disrespect to you either, but I think that stuff is beside the point.

The point is that TOI's pocketing instructions are simply the common steps for aiming (at whatever cut angle you like) at center pocket with a touch of side (in whatever direction you like) corrected for squirt - just described in reverse order. The two approaches get you to exactly the same place. Calling one a "plan" to reduce error doesn't really make the result any different or the errors any less.

I've always thought that the real benefit of TOI, the reason players improved with it, was simply its encouragement to pay closer attention to where you hit the CB and what part of the pocket you aim at.

pj
chgo

What you are describing is his 3 part pocket system. Aiming at a point in the pocket other than the center then hitting that spot on a perfect hit and the other two parts on off hits but always making the ball. Personally I didn't see value in that part and don't see how it makes the pocket play larger. But I do think many players do things that help them and believe in them. I am just not sure they are technically correct, as you have mentioned. I guess whatever system works for each is the best system. Look how Jim Furyk hits a golf ball. One of the best in the world and he was almost ruined by instructors who tried to fix his crazy figure 8 swing. :smile:
 
Conceptually speaking, because I haven't spent much time on TOI --- I know that we all use outside more than inside spin because we mostly play position with the angle of the shot rather than against it.

So it's logical to assume that many of our missed shots occur while applying outside spin. It's also not much of a stretch to assume that applying outside spin can become a habit, and if we do it right, we're not hurt by it, even though it may not be necessary for that particular shot. But if we miscalculate, then we are hurt by it.

I think we can then also say that we've created our own set of margin of error issues dictated by our own tendencies and habits.

Training yourself to use TOI on certain shots where it isn't necessary to use outside can possibly help reduce the number of errors for a player who tends to use outside more often than needed.

That is probably as close to my perspective on TOI as you can get.
 
What you are describing is his 3 part pocket system. Aiming at a point in the pocket other than the center then hitting that spot on a perfect hit and the other two parts on off hits but always making the ball. Personally I didn't see value in that part and don't see how it makes the pocket play larger.
By itself it doesn't make pockets "play larger" - but to give credit where due, paying closer attention to tip placement and "aiming small" into the pocket are certainly good practices. Too bad those very important principles are obscured with magical thinking "explanations".

But I do think many players do things that help them and believe in them. I am just not sure they are technically correct, as you have mentioned. I guess whatever system works for each is the best system.
I suppose so - but I think they should at least try realism. It might work too (maybe even better!), and then they know something that might help elsewhere.

pj
chgo
 
By itself it doesn't make pockets "play larger" - but to give credit where due, paying closer attention to tip placement and "aiming small" into the pocket are certainly good practices. Too bad those very important principles are obscured with magical thinking "explanations".


I suppose so - but I think they should at least try realism. It might work too (maybe even better!), and then they know something that might help elsewhere.

pj
chgo

Speaking strictly for myself, I don't disagree at all. I "strive to be technically correct" in all things. That is what keeps me from being a politician.:smile:
 
Not "beside the point"

PJ, I understand your perspective because it used to be mine. Since then I have become highly aware that I created scenarios that didn’t match the facts. Let me explain using some research done by Dr. Dave.

From David G. Alciatore, PhD (“Dr. Dave”) ILLUSTRATED PRINCIPLES “Throw – Part VII: CIT/SIT combo” https://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/feb07.pdf. Diagram 4

To put this in context, the idea is that every cut shot has some inherent amount of throw. Maximum throw occurs at about 30-35°, roughly a half ball shot, when slow stun is used. If however the ball has vertical rotation, follow or draw, and is shot with medium pace, the throw using inside side is consistent. Regardless of angle, medium paced, draw or follow show a consistent throw deviation was found across the cut angles tested. There was 1° of throw consistent across the entire range tested. A rolling ball is a rolling ball when it contacts the object ball and is treated as follow. The only other state is a sliding ball, stun. When a slow stun shot with maximum inside english is applied the throw amount is slightly higher resulting in 3-4° of throw across that same range of angles. A center soft stun shot has throw effects varying from near zero to as high as 5°. The point is that inside side offers the shooter a consistent single adjustment across all cut angles tested.

Another graph https://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2006/dec06.pdf , looked at the effect of degrees of english from small to maximum at varying speeds. A straight shot was tested to check speed vs throw dynamics. One conclusion stood out when considering a small amount of english. "SIT is independent of speed (i.e., the throw is the same at all speeds) for small amounts of English."

Logic tells us that the small amount of english dynamic, especially inside english, should apply across all angles consistently, regardless of speed, even at cut angles. In fact, one of the other graphs https://billiards.colostate.edu/bd_articles/2007/sept07.pdf compares squirt dynamics for different speeds at different cue offsets. The smallest offset tested was .21". That amounts to 5.3mm of side. CJ defined his amount of inside as ⅛ tip. An eighth of a 12 mm tip is 1.5mm. The three offsets tested were .15" apart. That is about 3.8mm. Coincidentally the ⅛ tip CJ used just happens to be that much less than the smallest tested. While each of the tested offsets resulted in roughly a single degree less deflection as offset decreased, the trend is further confirmation that "SIT is independent of speed (i.e., the throw is the same at all speeds) for small amounts of English."

When CJ followed his process of shifting the butt then the tip slightly, he guaranteed a very small amount of inside. The sharpness of the angle to the inside forced him to temper the inside move on long shots. That in fact created a different offset. The research led to refinements to his system that address its problems and led to new understandings of determining true offsets. Consistent offset combined with the science of inside side allow players to significantly reduce the effects of throw. Complexity around adjusting for angle, speed and offset deflection all collapse into a single treatment for the majority of shots.

There is more, but the idea that all this is "beside the point" creates an avalanche of cognitive dissonance. I’m just sharing some of the things learned going down this path that changed my perspective. It’s rare that I now need to calculate adjustments for throw.

Outside side can be applied in a similar manner but the existing testing doesn’t give good reference results for such a small amount of side. That said, the difference between SIT and CIT is emerging as significant when small amounts of side are applied. My ideas around that are undergoing the same issue "that I created scenarios that don’t match the facts." But that is a topic for another day.
 
Last edited:
Not “beside the point”
Maybe all that stuff is relevant to the point you’re making (whatever that is). It’s still beside the point I made - none of this makes pockets “play bigger” with intentional spin than they do without it (the point of CJ’s 3-part pocket nonsense).

pj
chgo
 
... - none of this makes pockets “play bigger” with intentional spin than they do without it ....
There are three ways I know of to make a pocket act as if it were larger:

The standard advice is to shoot softer. That works well at some angles along the cushion and on some tables where it is death to hit the near point in the corner pocket at high speed. Shoot softer and the ball has a better chance to slide into the pocket. The fact that it is rolling smoothly on the cloth when it hits the pocket helps.

The second way is to shoot harder. The classic example is a ball frozen to the point of the side pocket. If you shoot hard you can drive the object ball through the point. This can also work for the corner pockets. You can drive the object ball through the point and this can let you shoot straight at a ball you might think has to be cut into the pocket -- the setup is similar to the setup for the side pocket. Even when you shoot a ball off the spot (45 degree angle into the pocket), shooting harder makes the pocket larger rather than smaller.

The third way is to use "get-in english". For a long time I didn't believe this could make any difference. Then I did the experiment. If you are shooting a ball down the rail -- maybe 5-10 degrees from the rail -- and you can get some side spin on it such that when it hits the far face it will be helped into the pocket, the pocket can act about 20% larger. That's true for medium speed shots at least and on the Gold Crown I did the test on. If you have an angle on the cut down the rail (not a back-cut) the object ball will naturally have get-in english unless you use a lot of outside.

I don't think the last one is what CJ is talking about with TOI since inside may be the wrong spin to use to create get-in english and a little side spin probably won't change things much and maybe TOI is not even about side spin.
 
...maybe TOI is not even about side spin.
The "3 part pocket" part of TOI isn't about side spin - it's about favoring side over centerball in order to avoid stroke errors in the "non-side" direction (using a little left, for instance, supposedly makes stroke errors to the right ineffective). This is the part that's most nonsensical.

The rest of TOI is about negating contact-induced side spin with intentional inside spin - which of course works, but isn't new or special and shouldn't be habitually preferred.

pj
chgo
 
Back
Top