Call a foul on a newbie?

[mikepage]

Touching the CB when you do not have BIH is a foul in any rules , no ?

It's not really that the rules are unclear, but here is the practical situation at least as it has occurred where I live.

A player wants to take an intentional foul at 9-ball and doesn't want to rearrange the furniture. No problem: the player can just bunt the cueball a few inches and admit to a foul. Of course in practice, this situation is often shortened to the fouler just picking up the cueball and handing it to his opponent. So long as the cueball is in the clear, this just saves time.

The problem is players get used to this idea of just taking a pass and not shooting, so much so that at least where I am some of the better players feel it's actually legitimate to just pick up the cueball or just wave your hand and say, "go ahead, take ball in hand," inviting your to pick up the cueball.

Where it matters is when the cueball is hopelessly buried and any attempt to make legitimate tip-ball contact (never mind a legal hit) might rearrange the balls in the opponent's favor.

If the rules require you must take a forward-motion swipe at the cueball, it would be nice if there was a rule/ruling to point to.

--cause I know in my home poolroom people will argue about it.

 

[cuetechasaurus]

Not only would I call a foul, I would beat him up and set his car on fire. That'll teach him to go ball grabbin.

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

Maybe I was a little unclear. When the opposing player assumes a foul before it is agreed to a foul. I've seen this happen more than once, where the player will pick the cue ball up assuming cue ball in hand.

This is a little different than disturbing a stationary cue ball, because there's a question of a foul on the table. I just believe that a rule should be made to cover what is an obvious violation of etiquette and respect at the table. Mostly this occurs in nine ball, but I could see it happening in 8 ball as well.

Danny

 

[RRfireblade]

Maybe I was a little unclear. When the opposing player assumes a foul before it is agreed to a foul. I've seen this happen more than once, where the player will pick the cue ball up assuming cue ball in hand.

This is a little different than disturbing a stationary cue ball, because there's a question of a foul on the table. I just believe that a rule should be made to cover what is an obvious violation of etiquette and respect at the table. Mostly this occurs in nine ball, but I could see it happening in 8 ball as well.

Danny

I pretty much realize what you were saying but I don't feel there is a need to have a rule that covers 'intent'. From a practical standpoint , I don't see a difference between wrongly picking up the ball and having some part of your person touch the CB during the shot/setup/whatever regardless of taking a swipe at it.

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

Jay, I believe there should be rules of etiquette in pool, maybe separate from the rules on the table.

I created 10 rules of etiquette that we follow in all tournaments at Danny K's, including sitting in your chair, not speaking with others while you're opponent is shooting, sharking your opponent in the last game of the match, etc.

I would have tournaments of 90 players that would include Jose Parica, Efren Reyes, Keith, Tang Ho, Ernesto, all the pros in Southern California at the time.

What the rules of etiquette do is focus on behavior at the table.

Before every event I would announce these rules of etiquette and would have four or five refs to enforce them. I wouldn't leave it up to the players to alert a ref or try to enforce the rules themselves.

This worked great. After a few tourneys everyone was obeying these rules with no prompting. We didn't need the refs at all, except to call hits.

On occasion I would have to tell Efren to sit down, or someone else to not talk while their opponent was shooting. Noone seemed offended. It seemed to offer some welcomed structure to the tournament. Like setting boundaries for everyone.

So, in short I would make it a specific rule about picking the cue ball up, because it seems to be a pervasive problem.

Danny

 

[RRfireblade]

I do agree with that.

However , as I like to use Golf as an example , there is generally accepted Golf etiquette that is expected to be applied on the course. This is typically taught by the more experienced players and/or learned by example and practical application. These are not written in stone nor do they apply penalty for. They also vary on occasion from course to course around the world.

I see the CB example as not an etiquette issue , the player didn't pick up the CB to be mean , because of bad attitude or malicious intent. He simply did not know that it was contrary to rules that already exist. Worst case here is , IMO , he should be penalized for it like any other infraction (Foul) or made aware of the rule that covers the previous foul.

The only pervasive problem I see in pool is people that don't know all the rules of the game and assume that 8 or 9 ball rules cover it all.

Jay, I believe there should be rules of etiquette in pool, maybe separate from the rules on the table.

I created 10 rules of etiquette that we follow in all tournaments at Danny K's, including sitting in your chair, not speaking with others while you're opponent is shooting, sharking your opponent in the last game of the match, etc.

I would have tournaments of 90 players that would include Jose Parica, Efren Reyes, Keith, Tang Ho, Ernesto, all the pros in Southern California at the time.

What the rules of etiquette do is focus on behavior at the table.

Before every event I would announce these rules of etiquette and would have four or five refs to enforce them. I wouldn't leave it up to the players to alert a ref or try to enforce the rules themselves.

This worked great. After a few tourneys everyone was obeying these rules with no prompting. We didn't need the refs at all, except to call hits.

On occasion I would have to tell Efren to sit down, or someone else to not talk while their opponent was shooting. Noone seemed offended. It seemed to offer some welcomed structure to the tournament. Like setting boundaries for everyone.

So, in short I would make it a specific rule about picking the cue ball up, because it seems to be a pervasive problem.

Danny

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and if I there were enough (ethical) pros around to teach the proper etiquette to younger players, then rules of etiquette would be unnecessary.

Picking the cue ball up, yes is a violation of respect (usually) at the table. I've seen it happen on a few occasions, where the player thought he could get by with the "move" and pick the cue ball up before anyone could decide on a foul.

If a rule of "not disturbing the cue ball" will do the trick, I guess I don't have a problem with it. Or "not disturbing the cue ball until a ruling is made" by an official.

I believe it's important to point out elements that are negative about pool and bring them out in the open, so everyone can see, and then you might have a universal correction, like a general raising of consciousness.

That's why I believe rules of etiquette are important in pool, maybe not so necessary in golf. Golf has shown that they don't need rules of etiquette, the players obey a code of ethic that is unwritten.

Just because someone doesn't have (apparent) malicious intent doesn't necessarily mean they're being fair at the table. I've seen it all in pool.

Danny