call shot vs no call

[shooteredg]

I am curious as to what the consensus on this issue would be. I prefer call shot call safe and no wins off the break. This game is so behind on levels of purity its not even funny! How many times do u see a match have the outcome be determined by a lucky safe or !@#$ed winning ball made by accident! Thanx in advance for your responses!

 

[Redneck Jim]

I prefer call pocket instead of call shot.
There is still an element of luck every now and then though.

 

[pwd72s]

Just my opinion, so please don't take it personally...I believe that without
the luck factor, pool would be a boring game indeed.

 

[The Renfro]

I prefer call pocket only... The 2 way shot is one of the tools of the games and it allows us to see shots attempted that otherwise would result in a boring safe.....

What next?? Call position?? If you don't land within a 6 inch circle it's a foul or heaven forbid you run into a ball accidentally and still end up with a shot......

IF luck played such a big part in the game we wouldn't all know which handful of pros to take against the field in every tournament.....

 

[sfleinen]

I am curious as to what the consensus on this issue would be. I prefer call shot call safe and no wins off the break. This game is so behind on levels of purity its not even funny! How many times do u see a match have the outcome be determined by a lucky safe or !@#$ed winning ball made by accident! Thanx in advance for your responses!

Are you talking 10-ball, or 9-ball? If 10-ball, the world standardized rules, as well as the majority of the major tours already are standardized upon call-shot/call-safe. An example would be the Tony Robles' Predator tour:

http://predatorproamtour.com/rules.asp

2011 Open/Pro Rules

[...]

7. Call Shot/Safety:

Call Shot:
Players have the option of either calling their shot or calling a safety. Aside from obvious shots, the shooter must specify which ball and which pocket is being called. If a player is shooting a bank, combination or any kind of ambiguous shot, the player must call the shot.

If a player calls a shot and misses, the incoming player will have the option to shoot or make his opponent shoot again. No matter how many times a player misses a called shot, failure to pocket that ball legally or wrongfully pocketing the ball in another pocket allows the opposing player the option to shoot or make his opponent shoot again.

Call Safety:
If a player calls a safety, the incoming player does not have the option to make his opponent shoot again. The only exception is when a player calls safe and pockets a ball. If a player calls safe, legally hits the object ball and thereafter pockets any ball in their safety attempt, the opposing player has the option to shoot or make their opponent shoot again.​

If, on the other hand, you're talking 9-ball, I believe Texas Express is the way to go, because those rules are bolted to the hip of the game of 9-ball now.

I don't believe going extremist, by saying both 9-ball and 10-ball should be Texas Express or call-shot/call-safe, is the right thing to do. Let's keep it as an option to the player -- if he/she wants call-shot/call-safe, play 10-ball. If he/she wants Texas Express, play 9-ball. I think introducing Texas Express into 10-ball, or call-shot/call-safe into 9-ball, are abominations of those games.

And put it another way: what's the use of playing 10-ball with Texas Express, when the WPA's explicit purpose of introducing 10-ball was specifically to address the pro's issues with the game of 9-ball (i.e. slop, vulnerability of 9-ball's diamond-shaped rack to "wired" balls in the corner pockets, the vulnerability of the game to have matches be decided by the slop scenarios you mentioned above, etc.)?

-Sean

 

[ridewiththewind]

I am curious as to what the consensus on this issue would be. I prefer call shot call safe and no wins off the break. This game is so behind on levels of purity its not even funny! How many times do u see a match have the outcome be determined by a lucky safe or !@#$ed winning ball made by accident! Thanx in advance for your responses!

In 8 Ball? 9 Ball?

In 8 Ball...with the exception of no 8 Ball break wins....sounds like Bar 8 to me. Not a big fan...no consequences to purposely doggin' a shot, or scratchin' to screw your opponent...which happens a LOT. No honest effort required. I prefer a nice Vegas 8 call pocket game....otherwise BCAPL rules work great.

BTW....very few true safeties are "lucky"...many have worked long and hard to perfect that aspect of their game. Others, like myself, have a strong 'shot safety' game....what you may perceive as a "lucky safe" was actually quite calculated.

In 9 Ball...well, the entire goal of the game is to be the first to drop the 9 Ball, whether it be on the snap, or a combo....or just walking up, slammin' the heck outta your object ball, sending in careening about the table, only to knock the 9 Ball in on a fluke. A far, far more sloppy game, IMHO.

 

[Poolplaya9]

I can't stand "call shot". Luck isn't all that big of a factor, and it all pretty much evens out over time anyway. The call shot rules really hurt the player with the most intelligence, imagination, knowledge, and strategy. Two way shots cease to exist. I would much rather fade the occasion luck or good roll from my opponent, than to have a good portion of the thinking and strategy part of the game removed.

 

[King T]

PWD72s has a good point..., luck is luck and its part of every game, no luck less fun. Call shot, ok thats cool, but at some point you have to take your bad rolls a move on.

 

[mantis99]

I prefer call pocket instead of call shot.
There is still an element of luck every now and then though.

I agree! No reason for a game of precision to be slop. I do prefer call pocket over shot though

 

[sfleinen]

I can't stand "call shot". Luck isn't all that big of a factor, and it all pretty much evens out over time anyway. The call shot rules really hurt the player with the most intelligence, imagination, knowledge, and strategy. Two way shots cease to exist. I would much rather fade the occasion luck or good roll from my opponent, than to have a good portion of the thinking and strategy part of the game removed.

There's a difference between the WPA rules for 10-ball, and WPA+ rules for 10-ball. The difference being this (these are the WPA+ rules, the part I'm referring to is bolded below):

Call Shot:
Players have the option of either calling their shot or calling a safety. Aside from obvious shots, the shooter must specify which ball and which pocket is being called. If a player is shooting a bank, combination or any kind of ambiguous shot, the player must call the shot.

If a player calls a shot and misses, the incoming player will have the option to shoot or make his opponent shoot again. No matter how many times a player misses a called shot, failure to pocket that ball legally or wrongfully pocketing the ball in another pocket allows the opposing player the option to shoot or make his opponent shoot again.​

In WPA rules, if a player misses a called shot, as long as no ball is pocketed (either the object ball in the wrong pocket, or another incidental ball on the table), the incoming player *HAS* to accept the table as-is.

I guess the WPA rules are what folks responding to this thread are referring to when they say "call pocket, not call shot". When people say "call shot," I think of bar rules where you are forced to call every contact that the cue ball and object ball makes as the object ball goes to the pocket (in other words, everything in the "shot"). Not what's intended terminology-wise.

-Sean

 

[Pushout]

There is no difference in call shot and call pocket and never has been. Straight Pool is call shot, all you call is the ball and the pocket. It's been that way since about 1910. Why should there be any difference?

On the 10 ball side I prefer called shots and safeties. The two way shot should have died an ignoble death long ago.
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[sfleinen]

There is no difference in call shot and call pocket and never has been. Straight Pool is call shot, all you call is the ball and the pocket. It's been that way since about 1910. Why should there be any difference?


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I guess the situation is exacerbated by the bar rules situation, specifically when discussing things on a pool forum. When talking tournament- / championship-level play, you're right -- there's no difference between call-shot and call-pocket, and they are used interchangeably. The difference comes when discussing these things in a forum, and you have players from all corners of the pool world in the discussion, including bar players.

A slight correction, though. Straight pool is known as a ball and pocket-nomination game. You nominate the ball and the pocket it goes into. The term "nominate" has been used in the rules as far back as I can remember. The usage of the word "call" adds a bit of confusion, because you don't "nominate" contacts that the cue ball or the object ball makes on its way to the pocket. But you can "call" them, and I think this is where the usage of the word "call" is confusing.

-Sean

 

[Pushout]

I'll check my BCA rule book when I get home


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[Poolplaya9]

There's a difference between the WPA rules for 10-ball, and WPA+ rules for 10-ball. The difference being this (these are the WPA+ rules, the part I'm referring to is bolded below):

Call Shot:
Players have the option of either calling their shot or calling a safety. Aside from obvious shots, the shooter must specify which ball and which pocket is being called. If a player is shooting a bank, combination or any kind of ambiguous shot, the player must call the shot.

If a player calls a shot and misses, the incoming player will have the option to shoot or make his opponent shoot again. No matter how many times a player misses a called shot, failure to pocket that ball legally or wrongfully pocketing the ball in another pocket allows the opposing player the option to shoot or make his opponent shoot again.​

In WPA rules, if a player misses a called shot, as long as no ball is pocketed (either the object ball in the wrong pocket, or another incidental ball on the table), the incoming player *HAS* to accept the table as-is.

I guess the WPA rules are what folks responding to this thread are referring to when they say "call pocket, not call shot". When people say "call shot," I think of bar rules where you are forced to call every contact that the cue ball and object ball makes as the object ball goes to the pocket (in other words, everything in the "shot"). Not what's intended terminology-wise.

-Sean

Thanks for the input and rule clarifications.

According to your posted explanations, I don't like the WPA rules because they eliminate some of the imagination, strategy and skill from the game, but they are better than WPA+. The WPA+ rules are absolute and total garbage because they pretty much totally remove two way shots and a significant portion of the thinking game that benefits players with the most intelligence, imagination, knowledge and strategy. The "bar rules" type "call shot" game is also absolute garbage for too many reasons than I will bother to name. I guess the OP should be a bit more specific about exactly which set of "call shot" rules he is referring to?

 

[stuckart]

I prefer call pocket only... The 2 way shot is one of the tools of the games and it allows us to see shots attempted that otherwise would result in a boring safe.....

What next?? Call position?? If you don't land within a 6 inch circle it's a foul or heaven forbid you run into a ball accidentally and still end up with a shot......

IF luck played such a big part in the game we wouldn't all know which handful of pros to take against the field in every tournament.....

I couldn't agree more!!

Why would anyone want to take away the possibilities of 2 and 3 way shots? Call Shot/Call Safe also limits players from going for difficult shots because they could get the shot back.

I just think that is plain and simple STUPID! The offensive shots that players make is what wow's the audience and fans.

 

[sfleinen]

Thanks for the input and rule clarifications.

According to your posted explanations, I don't like the WPA rules because they eliminate some of the imagination, strategy and skill from the game, but they are better than WPA+. The WPA+ rules are absolute and total garbage because they pretty much totally remove two way shots and a significant portion of the thinking game that benefits players with the most intelligence, imagination, knowledge and strategy. The "bar rules" type "call shot" game is also absolute garbage for too many reasons than I will bother to name. I guess the OP should be a bit more specific about exactly which set of "call shot" rules he is referring to?

Poolplaya9:

I appreciate your candid opinion, and I respect it for your explanations why. However, I don't think WPA rules "eliminate" some of the imagination, strategy, and skill of the game. What it does, is make it such that the player has to simply nominate what he/she is doing verbally, so that others know it wasn't just a fluke or lucky roll. One can still engage imagination, strategy, and skill into the game -- you just have to *say* what you're going to do, and yes, you still have the "plan B" of the two-way shot. What's not allowed, is missing and fluking-in another object ball, or the game-winning ball, without calling it first. This is a fair compromise for a game that was intended to address all of the issues expressed by the very players we like to watch, the pros that play the game.

As for WPA+ rules, I can understand the disappointment with the elimination of the two-way shot. But I think the impetus behind the WPA+ rules was to make the game a game of COMMITMENT, and not chance. One either commits to a shot, or commits to a safety, not both.

Again, thank you for the candid input!
-Sean

 

[Poolplaya9]

Poolplaya9:

I appreciate your candid opinion, and I respect it for your explanations why. However, I don't think WPA rules "eliminate" some of the imagination, strategy, and skill of the game. What it does, is make it such that the player has to simply nominate what he/she is doing verbally, so that others know it wasn't just a fluke or lucky roll............This is a fair compromise for a game that was intended to address all of the issues expressed by the very players we like to watch, the pros that play the game.

The WPA rules do indeed remove some of the imagination, strategy, and skill, albeit substantially less than the WPA+ rules do. One example is that doesn't happen all the time but is not uncommon is when you are playing two different balls with one shot (either by choice or because that is what is going to happen anyway based on how the balls lay). You know that both will probably go in (or in some cases they both are lower percentage but you had the intelligence, imagination and insight to go for a second "insurance" ball as well), but in some cases one rattles and hangs up but the other one goes in but there was no way to predict between the two. I don't think you should be penalized for also going for the second "insurance" ball that your opponent probably never would have even thought of. There are other examples as well when you take the time to think it out.

I do agree however that the WPA rules are a pretty good compromise between the two camps, if a compromise has to be made. As far as the pros go, from what I have heard from numerous pros, they are split with their preferences on call pocket verses call shot/safe just like the mainstream is.

 

[sfleinen]

The WPA rules do indeed remove some of the imagination, strategy, and skill, albeit substantially less than the WPA+ rules do. One example is that doesn't happen all the time but is not uncommon is when you are playing two different balls with one shot (either by choice or because that is what is going to happen anyway based on how the balls lay). You know that both will probably go in (or in some cases they both are lower percentage but you had the intelligence, imagination and insight to go for a second "insurance" ball as well), but in some cases one rattles and hangs up but the other one goes in but there was no way to predict between the two. I don't think you should be penalized for also going for the second "insurance" ball that your opponent probably never would have even thought of. There are other examples as well when you take the time to think it out.

I see what you're saying -- in that case, the removal of "I'll go for 'this' ball and 'that' ball simultaneously, taking one or the other" is an unfortunate casualty of the call-ball/call-pocket part of the WPA rules. However, to frame that shot you described as a particularly "imaginative" or "smart" shot is, if you don't mind the returned candor, a stretch. Unless one is so focused on the shot that he/she is ignoring where the cue ball is going (or is a beginning player that has no cue ball control), most players will see that they are going to collide into the other ball, and possibly in a way to pocket that ball as well. A good example is a thin cut shot in the side pocket, where you see that the cue ball is going to collide into a ball lined up for the corner pocket. In WPA rules, in this case, you are forced into a COMMITMENT decision, where you have to choose which one you're going to call (as you know, you can't call two balls in any incarnation of WPA rules, no matter what game it is -- 10-ball, 8-ball, 14.1, etc.). Those who've played rotation pool all their lives, or who favor rotation games above all other games, take exception to this, precisely because of their locked-in nature to the game of 9-ball.

I do agree however that the WPA rules are a pretty good compromise between the two camps, if a compromise has to be made. As far as the pros go, from what I have heard from numerous pros, they are split with their preferences on call pocket verses call shot/safe just like the mainstream is.

That's right -- I've heard from both sides concerning the WPA and WPA+ rules. It's kind of split down the middle. A good example of this is the Open 10-ball at SBE; it tends to waffle between WPA and WPA+ each year. Two years ago, it was WPA+. Last year, it was WPA. This year, it was WPA+ once again (obviously due to the PBA influence, but that's another topic).

-Sean

 

[Pushout]

I guess the situation is exacerbated by the bar rules situation, specifically when discussing things on a pool forum. When talking tournament- / championship-level play, you're right -- there's no difference between call-shot and call-pocket, and they are used interchangeably. The difference comes when discussing these things in a forum, and you have players from all corners of the pool world in the discussion, including bar players.

A slight correction, though. Straight pool is known as a ball and pocket-nomination game. You nominate the ball and the pocket it goes into. The term "nominate" has been used in the rules as far back as I can remember. The usage of the word "call" adds a bit of confusion, because you don't "nominate" contacts that the cue ball or the object ball makes on its way to the pocket. But you can "call" them, and I think this is where the usage of the word "call" is confusing.

-Sean

You're correct about the "nominate" thing. I'ts been called a call shot game as far back as I can remember, however.
When the ball-in-hand-anywhere rules came into being, after a while people began seeing that when they missed their opponent often did not have a shot. They began to see that they could do that on purpose and it changed the game until the present. The "if" factor of "If I miss you may not have a shot, if I make it I will" came into being and some people call that strategy. I think the "if" factor still makes it a luck thing. Doing away with the luck factor makes the game harder. People don't like harder/having to improve their skill level. People still labor under the illusion that if the game is easier for them they have more of a chance to beat better players more easily. The truth is, it doesn't.

 

[Mole Eye]

Speaking as a fan, having watched quite a bit of the SBE, the called shot called safety seemed extremely boring. No one dared to try a tough shot, because the consequences were loss of game. Eliminating the two way shot made for a VERY boring game. Just my opinion, but I like winning on the break. Why penalize the guy that has a big break? I've played plenty of people that the break was the only advantage I had; I sure didn't want to give that advantage away. I know the better players like the called shot for obvious reasons- but the fans like the unexpected.