Calling the double hit foul (close CB to OB) in the APA

droveto

droveto

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
It seems the majority of players in the APA don't understand this foul. (CB close to OB and both balls leave the point of impact at the same velocity and move together)
Sadly, many of the refs don't either. When playing in the national Vegas singles tournament, this foul occurred with a ref watching and he called it a good hit. In general, SL4 and below, I won't call the bad hit, but I think SL5's and above should know better... However it seems to bring about more arguments than it's worth.

I'm curious what other players/captains do when they see this foul occur in the APA... I watched an SL5 do this a couple nights ago, I didn't call the foul, but went to the opposing captain (strong SL6 who knows a good amount of pool theory) asked him his thoughts. He said he wasn't watching the shot so he couldn't comment. The shooter overheard our conversation after his turn at the table and then came over and started defending how he could make the balls travel together without a double hit with only 1/4 inch between the CB and OB... So annoying...

When I encountered this in Vegas I pulled all the money out of my wallet and challenged the referee and the player to set the cue ball 12 inches away from the object ball and to make the same thing happen where the balls contact each other and then roll together... They told me the physics are different from that distance... I guess those things they teach you when getting your engineering degree don't apply to pool... :)
 
droveto said:
It seems the majority of players in the APA don't understand this foul. (CB close to OB and both balls leave the point of impact at the same velocity and move together)
Sadly, many of the refs don't either. When playing in the national Vegas singles tournament, this foul occurred with a ref watching and he called it a good hit. In general, SL4 and below, I won't call the bad hit, but I think SL5's and above should know better... However it seems to bring about more arguments than it's worth.

I'm curious what other players/captains do when they see this foul occur in the APA... I watched an SL5 do this a couple nights ago, I didn't call the foul, but went to the opposing captain (strong SL6 who knows a good amount of pool theory) asked him his thoughts. He said he wasn't watching the shot so he couldn't comment. The shooter overheard our conversation after his turn at the table and then came over and started defending how he could make the balls travel together without a double hit with only 1/4 inch between the CB and OB... So annoying...

When I encountered this in Vegas I pulled all the money out of my wallet and challenged the referee and the player to set the cue ball 12 inches away from the object ball and to make the same thing happen where the balls contact each other and then roll together... They told me the physics are different from that distance... I guess those things they teach you when getting your engineering degree don't apply to pool... :)
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I surmise that you're either a tournament director or league operator. IMO, you have to step up and call this foul no matter what the skill level of the player. It wouldn't hurt to explain this problem in a group setting so that players can be forewarned. In any case, the lower level players have to learn this sometime. I think the easiest way of explaining it is to talk in terms of the tangent line between the two balls: if the cue ball crosses the tangent line to a significant degree, then the only explanation is a double hit. For those who strangely think that the cueball behaves differently when the two balls are close, you should point out that the cueball doesn't "know" how far it has traveled when it strikes an object ball; the rebound behavior is the same whether it has traveled 1/8 inch or 3 feet.
 
brechbt said:
I surmise that you're either a tournament director or league operator. IMO, you have to step up and call this foul no matter what the skill level of the player. It wouldn't hurt to explain this problem in a group setting so that players can be forewarned. In any case, the lower level players have to learn this sometime. I think the easiest way of explaining it is to talk in terms of the tangent line between the two balls: if the cue ball crosses the tangent line to a significant degree, then the only explanation is a double hit. For those who strangely think that the cueball behaves differently when the two balls are close, you should point out that the cueball doesn't "know" how far it has traveled when it strikes an object ball; the rebound behavior is the same whether it has traveled 1/8 inch or 3 feet.
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Nope, just a captain... I wish I was a league op so that I could lay the smack down on the ignorant pool players... :) I've played in different leagues in Vegas, Jersey, Connecticut and now Boston. BCA players understand this foul where it seems APA players do not.

In Jersey, because I had been there so long and had established relationships with so many of the players and captains, we were able to educate people on this hit. However, when you're the "new guy" in a league though, I get the "who the hell is this nit acting like a know it all" attitude from players/captains... One guy said, "Relax, you're new to this league..." Nothing I could do but roll my eyes, walk away, and not let it ruin my night by having some stupid argument with a moron. :)
 
I would say the ref was probably a player that was on a team that was eliminated. If that is true then the person watching the shot may or may not know that the heck a double hit is.
 
Neil said:
I don't know about the "official" rules, but the local rules here say a double hit is not a foul. I guess that's their easy way out of actually learning something to be able to easily tell if it was a double hit or not.:rolleyes:
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Wow... Just wow...
 
In St Louis the rule is "if the ball's are less than one chalk width apart a foul cannot be called". I think this is ludicrous but once you know that you can use it to your advantage. So at least it is fair for everyone. I will say that it eliminates all arguments about good hit/bad hit. I feel confident enough in my pool knowledge to tell at least 95% of the time, but without slow motion cameras and replay it would be almost impossible to tell sometimes.
 
Not being an engineer, it's been my experience that there is a way to make this hit and make it legal but it takes some real "pool knowledge" that a lot of players just don't have, I can't do it unless (as we all know) we're shooting the cue ball away from the object ball (when the balls are froze or very close). A couple of years ago we set up this shot and filmed this shot with a high def camera and anyone we could get to shoot the shot, all in all about 50 people. We reviewed these shots in very slo-mo and found that only 2 of the people that shot it didn't commit a foul. They both shot it with what they called "cross-face" english. I don't know how it worked but the cue always wound up to left of the point of contact (for a right handed player). The CB moved like it was some sort of extreme draw shot.
Any time I see this situation develop at the table, if it's a game that means anything I'll get a referee and if I don't know him I'll try to explain what's about to happen, they don't always like that but if I have to get a more experienced ref or the LO involved in the discussion it solves many of the issues. What usually happens is that somewhere in this discussion someone will explain to the shooter that this (if they're pointing right at the OB), this will most likely result in a foul, and they adjust their shot accordingly. If they don't adjust, without fail this has resulted in a foul. However, surprising as it is, some of the referees in Las Vegas that I have observed are lacking some education as far as some of this stuff goes.
 
iba7467 said:
In St Louis the rule is "if the ball's are less than one chalk width apart a foul cannot be called". I think this is ludicrous but once you know that you can use it to your advantage. So at least it is fair for everyone. I will say that it eliminates all arguments about good hit/bad hit. I feel confident enough in my pool knowledge to tell at least 95% of the time, but without slow motion cameras and replay it would be almost impossible to tell sometimes.
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Actually it is pretty easy to see the foul if you know what to look for. If the cue ball moves forward at a speed close to the OB than it was a bad hit. The hard ones to call are shots where the OB and another ball are close together and the cue ball strikes them at almost the same time.
 
TheNewSharkster said:
Actually it is pretty easy to see the foul if you know what to look for. If the cue ball moves forward at a speed close to the OB than it was a bad hit. The hard ones to call are shots where the OB and another ball are close together and the cue ball strikes them at almost the same time.
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The only time it's hard to spot is when the shooter jacks the cue up and shoots with extreme draw. There could easily be a double hit, but the backspin stops the cue ball so you don't get to see it travel along with the OB... This one I always let slide since the shooter is at least trying and there's no definitive way to call it.
But when they line up straight on it, and both balls go off and the cue ball hits a rail at the same time the OB goes in the pocket and the shooter gets perfect position on their last ball I have a really hard time keeping my mouth shut... Especially when it's done by a skilled player who probably knows exactly what he/she is doing...
 
this came up in my leauge so much. i would call people on it all the time. next year guess what! my leauge changed the rule that balls this close could be shot straight on NO FOUL... Is it so hard to shoot at another ball or shoot it at a 45.. but the y'ners allways get there way... what can you do...
 
Unfortunately, with taht league, they don't have a provision in the rules for the double hit. You're kinda screwed.

On a side note, where abouts in Jersey did you play? I'm just wondering if I know you?


Eric
 
Eric. said:
Unfortunately, with taht league, they don't have a provision in the rules for the double hit. You're kinda screwed.

On a side note, where abouts in Jersey did you play? I'm just wondering if I know you?


Eric
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Hoboken for the majority of my seasons (more than 20) and I played in Parsippany for a few seasons as well...
 
In our (APA) league, its your responsibility to get a 3rd party to watch the shot *before* the shot. If you don't, its the shooters word. Thats pretty much the case for _any_ potential foul.
 
The last time I encountered this in the APA, I was told any effort to elevate the cue and/or hit away would result in a 'no foul' call.

This was a 7 playing a 7 in a tournament singles setting, too! Of course, the shooter knew the ruling already and shot, knowing it would be a foul in any other league/tournament.

I quit after that session...

-s
 
There is no rule for double hits in the APA when the two balls are real close together. If the cue ball and object ball are a foot from each other than I think thats a different story.
 
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