Can anyone identify this case???

[classiccues]

And an older Jay Flowers/Nora Van Horn to see where Jack got a lot of his "look" from.

And the case in question:

Other than the SIMPLE tooling pattern and the lid-style both of which are common on leather goods I don't see a lot of similarity between this case and the Justis.

No one disputes the "style" of case in question. But the NVH/JEF tooling is NOTHING like the case from the OP, and nothing like a Justis.

The Justis and the OP case, on the other hand.. copy.

Try again..

JV

 

[classiccues]

Really?

That's not a very good compliment for Jack then because his work is much cleaner than this. The whole case has a different profile than a Justis. Would you say the same thing about an Al King case? Or a Black Hills case?

I can name several other case makers who have done Justis-like cases and not once has anyone on here piped up to call those cases knockoffs.

I would bet $100 if I walked up to your booth and tried to sell you this case you would NOT say it's a Justis. I would bet you wouldn't ask me if Jack built it and you wouldn't look for his stamp or signature because it would be clearly apparent to you that it's not a Justis.

The fact of it is that Jack set the "tone" by anchoring the conversation and calling it a knockoff when it's clearly NOT a knockoff. I do not believe for a second that anyone who owns or has owned a Justis would confuse this case with one. They might say it looks like a Justis a little, or has elements of Justis which it does but I highly doubt that anyone would say "Nice Justis".

But again let's stick to the larger point. If this case is a knockoff then can we call Justis' work knockoffs of Jay Flowers? And Thomas' work knockoffs of Centennial and McDermott and It's George? Can we call Marc Turcasso and Rusty Melton's work knockoffs of Chas Clements' work?

I am not so cavalier about using the word knockoff. To me there has to me much more copying, almost 1:1 to be considered a knockoff. Just using a few elements doesn't make it a knockoff and certainly not a ripoff.

I think you need to apply the knock off aspect to; is the company intentionally trying to make the case in question appear to be a Justis. Yes it is. Did they forget some items, sure, but even the Bently instrokes were not rivet to rivet the same.

Jack probably took the design of JEF Q Cases and made it his own in respect to adournments, and probably the construction. All the Fellini style tube case makers are limited in what they can make a simple 1 x 2 tube look like. Are they knockoff's, probably. But like people use the basic design elements in cue design theft, the same would apply to this simple leather wrapped plastic case. Are they knock offs of Gina or Martin? Who knows.

If there was a family tree in cases, then Jack, Dennis Swift etc.. would be a branch off of the JEF Q case trunk, no doubt about it.

The case from the OP uses Jacks tooling design, on a case that is clearly derived from his layout, the same as a JEF layout. However that case is not trying to look like a JEF Q case, its trying to look like a Justis. Up close that case is not going to fool people, as Sean stated from 2 tables away, it looks like a Justis.

JV

 

[JB Cases]

One other thing.. YOU told me numerous times that those cases were never called Jay Flowers, EVER. But look above... looks like someone knows exactly what those cases have always been called... YOU don't even call them JEF Q cases.. lol. Don't ever correct anyone until you can keep it straight yourself.

What's next.. you going to have a line of cues called Boti cues, or Bushka cues.. you know its just a brand...?

JV

I didn't say that they were never called Jay Flowers. I said that JAY never used that term in his ads. If you would bother to read my website I say in the FIRST PARAGRAPH that the cases were commonly known as "Flowers" cases. Dude you have the HIGHEST CAPACITY for misreading and misstating stuff that I have ever seen.

Once again a nickname is not a brand name. Just because you commonly call the cue a Bushka or a Boti does not mean that those are the brand names of the cues. Does everything have to be explained to you like a kindergartner?

I might just do a line of Bushka cues just to piss you off. You know because since you like to get all "legal" on stuff "Bushka" is not a brand of cues (yet). But Omega is? Oh snap, Mr. Legal isn't coming down on the "new" Omega brand is he???

 

[JB Cases]

I think you need to apply the knock off aspect to; is the company intentionally trying to make the case in question appear to be a Justis. Yes it is. Did they forget some items, sure, but even the Bently instrokes were not rivet to rivet the same.

If they were intentionally trying to make this look like a Justis they failed. They didn't forget some items. Do you not think that a Justis is EASY to copy? They ADDED several DISTINCT elements ON PURPOSE to distinguish it from a Justis.

And yes, the Bentley knockoffs of Instrokes were nearly rivet to rivet the same. Stop going into water that is over your head when you can't swim.

Jack probably took the design of JEF Q Cases and made it his own in respect to adournments, and probably the construction.

He did. But the fact is that he "knocked off" many elements of the JEF Q Cases along the way. So if this case is a knockoff of a Justis then a Justis is a knockoff of a Flowers case.

All the Fellini style tube case makers are limited in what they can make a simple 1 x 2 tube look like. Are they knockoff's, probably. But like people use the basic design elements in cue design theft, the same would apply to this simple leather wrapped plastic case. Are they knock offs of Gina or Martin? Who knows.

I know. Yes they are substantially derived from Martin and Gina but with deviations along the way. The POINT is that YOU and others don't go around pointing the finger and screaming KNOCKOFF - RIPOFF every time one of those cases shows up.

If there was a family tree in cases, then Jack, Dennis Swift etc.. would be a branch off of the JEF Q case trunk, no doubt about it.

Except that there are tooled cases which predate Flowers so those are a branch of of someone else's idea.

The case from the OP uses Jacks tooling design, on a case that is clearly derived from his layout, the same as a JEF layout. However that case is not trying to look like a JEF Q case, its trying to look like a Justis.

Well then it's not doing a good job of it. I doubt that the builders were TRYING to make it look like a Justis or they would have done so. They did do a row of stamps in the same way Jack did them. But that's also a common theme in leather working to use that stamp in that way along a line. Comes from belt making and has been around for longer than any cue case makers.

Up close that case is not going to fool people, as Sean stated from 2 tables away, it looks like a Justis.

JV

If you're going to use two-table's distance as your criteria then there are a LOT more cases out there that look like a Justis so can I expect you and the copy-police to be crying foul every time one of them shows up on AZB from here on out?

If that's the case then from two table's distance Justis cases sure do look like (some) JEF Q Cases........

 

[derimez]

so...never posting on this site again...

it looks like my case is either a knock off of a justis, or not.

while i will agree that the tooling looks similar to a justis, i've also noticed that the back of many (if not most) justis cases have tooling as well. my case does not. so JB's argument holds water in that if whoever made this case had wanted to copy justis's design directly, they were only half successful at best. on the other had, what they seem to have done is build a durable, nice looking leather case with some simple tooling. i don't know if that makes it a knock off necessarily. if that were the case (no pun intended) all basic, 4 point cues would be knock offs of one another. doesn't make much sense.

at any rate, i appreciate all the discussion and while i still haven't identified what the case is and how much it's worth, i definitely know what it is not!

-derin

 

[rigmaster]

Wasn't Fellini a Knock off of a Harvey Martin Case? Just sayin aren't they all knockoffs I like Ross/Justis Knockoffs the BEST. Yep Jack is the MASTER Casemaker! Rusty Melton and King are great as well but Justis is to Cases as Gus was to cues! That is why I have 12 and have another on the way Justis/ Ross Brown Elephant with the NICE PROLITE INTERIOR!!!! Ron <---Not a racist and can't help it that the BEST CASES are made in USA!

 

[JB Cases]

so...never posting on this site again...

it looks like my case is either a knock off of a justis, or not.

while i will agree that the tooling looks similar to a justis, i've also noticed that the back of many (if not most) justis cases have tooling as well. my case does not. so JB's argument holds water in that if whoever made this case had wanted to copy justis's design directly, they were only half successful at best. on the other had, what they seem to have done is build a durable, nice looking leather case with some simple tooling. i don't know if that makes it a knock off necessarily. if that were the case (no pun intended) all basic, 4 point cues would be knock offs of one another. doesn't make much sense.

at any rate, i appreciate all the discussion and while i still haven't identified what the case is and how much it's worth, i definitely know what it is not!

-derin

It is a Bentley brand case. Worth about 3-400 retail when new. Used 100-200 maybe.

 

[JB Cases]

Wasn't Fellini a Knock off of a Harvey Martin Case? Just sayin aren't they all knockoffs I like Ross/Justis Knockoffs the BEST. Yep Jack is the MASTER Casemaker! Rusty Melton and King are great as well but Justis is to Cases as Gus was to cues! That is why I have 12 and have another on the way Justis/ Ross Brown Elephant with the NICE PROLITE INTERIOR!!!! Ron <---Not a racist and can't help it that the BEST CASES are made in USA!

Fellini was closer to a Gina case than to a Harvey Martin. Harvey Martin was the first to use the upholstered ends where the leather is laid up OVER the ends and capped with another piece of leather to finish it.

But that technique is hundreds of years old and was used on cases of various types as early as the 1600s as far as I can see from my research.

As to who the best cue case maker living I'd say it's a matter of opinion. My opinion includes protection and diversity as criteria. One thing is indisputable though, by and large the cases made today are far better than what we had in the past.

I think it's important to note though that if you feel that the best cases are made by Jack and in the USA then it should be noted clearly that the interiors he uses are Made in China by Long Chen. After all, without an interior I don't think that the case is very useful. Kind of like a car without an engine. Could be the most beautiful car in the world but with no engine it's not much of a car.

Anyway here is another Chinese made case:

And another one:

Jack said that these cases are made with all the same quality and attention to detail that he applies when making his cases. They are 100% made in China at the Long Chen Case Factory.

So I guess that means that if you think that Justis cases are the best then the best is also made in China.

 

[JB Cases]

Here is a post where Jack says he was in China and they made an improvement to his original design which he then incorporated into his own cases that he makes in Florida.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=1369293&postcount=18

"Here are a few photos of the Justis West and Jasmin's ProLite taken together. When I was in China, I looked at a couple different lid designs and liked the way they riveted the top of lid strap to the top of the lid. This eliminated the 2 eschution which sometimes backs out depending on how rough you are on the lid strap. With their permission, I immediately changed my cases over to this improved design. If I took photos of identical cases (Justis West/Justis Cases) side by side, you would not be able to tell which is which except for the smell....." - Jack Justis

Ironically, the cases labeled East were made in the west and the cases labeled West were made in the east. That is to say Justis West cases are made in China.

 

[rigmaster]

Show me something along these lines from CHINA Ross Tooled Gator Justis! Got Gators there?
3x6

 

[JB Cases]

Show me something along these lines from CHINA Ross Tooled Gator Justis! Got Gators there?
3x6

No doubt Ron. Those ARE Monster cases for sure. And they all use Chinese made interiors.

I understand that you are a huge Justis fan and you should be. Those are magnificent cases. Ron Ross' tooling is excellent and Jack has his construction down to the millimeter.

I am just keeping it real here on several levels. First for anyone to say that the case presented by the original poster is a knockoff of Jack's work really is devaluing Jack's work. Including Jack himself in my opinion. I wouldn't even elevate this case to the status of Justis knockoff if I were him.

Secondly for anyone to say that "China" can't make something as good as Jack's work has been disproven by Jack himself when he stated that the cases made under his direction in China were not only as good but in fact better than his own. At least insofar as the lid design goes.

Mr. Ross is without doubt a world class tooler. But here in China there are now some world class toolers as well. And yes, we have gators but since they eat them here and use them for handbags it's rare to see one get big enough for a case. If you want to pay the price then I am sure I can find a gator hide large enough to match it with some tooling and produce a case that is on par with the fabulous cases you showed us.

I am certain that Jack's partner Long Chen can make a Justis West in that style if they have access to the good toolers and exotic leather.

 

[rigmaster]

When it comes to the interiors you can't beat the little guy's, yep MIGHTY FINE INDEED!

 

[JB Cases]

When it comes to the interiors you can't beat the little guy's, yep MIGHTY FINE INDEED!

Well naturally I disagree with you on this but I am of course hugely biased.

But Long Chan in China does do a pretty good job for Jack's interiors.

I just noticed on Ebay that someone is selling "Justis-style" cases. I don't really think that they are but if you guys want something else to jump on here you go:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vincitore-P...aultDomain_0&hash=item2a15e54ec5#ht_500wt_990

J&J by the way prides themselves on carrying Justis cases. They aren't a "dealer" but they appear to be one since they are a wholesaler. So it's kind of strange that they sell cases patterned after the Justis profile. Then again maybe not, they sell Whitten knockoffs and Instroke knockoffs as well.

 

[rigmaster]

Not Jumpin on you John! The cases you posted the link to are a JOKE and in no way could ever be thought of as a JUSTIS! Hell they aren't even leather I had one that was Leather it was a knock off Instroke. I got it from England with a RARE Tascarella and 6 shafts in it! It was a 3x7 and I sold it! I only have enough room in my safe for Justis Cases and a few Engles.. Never meant to jump on you as you make some damn nice cases yourself I still have 2 Early Instroke's 2x3 and 2x4 Buffalo they are great cases as well! Take Care John, Ron

 

[JB Cases]

Not Jumpin on you John! The cases you posted the link to are a JOKE and in no way could ever be thought of as a JUSTIS! Hell they aren't even leather I had one that was Leather it was a knock off Instroke. I got it from England with a RARE Tascarella and 6 shafts in it! It was a 3x7 and I sold it! I only have enough room in my safe for Justis Cases and a few Engles.. Never meant to jump on you as you make some damn nice cases yourself I still have 2 Early Instroke's 2x3 and 2x4 Buffalo they are great cases as well! Take Care John, Ron

Exactly my point. If cases which are even advertised as Justis-style and which use the double lines, the arrow heads, and even the coat of arms, can't be thought of as a Justis then the case the OP posted has no shot.

Justis cases now have an unmistakable profile. They have a certain look to them which is undeniable. They aren't hard to copy but certainly if one wants to copy them then it's best not to mix and match elements from other brands and styles if the intention is to make a case that really looks like a Justis.

To me there are certain things about Justis cases that are sacred that I won't do if asked, and I get asked. Although Jack does do a variety of designs there are a few tooling styles he does which I consider to be off-limits. When I see someone else doing those then I will call the case a knockoff or partial knockoff. Just like when Joe Porper took my scallops,

That was a clear "borrowing" of my signature design element with the Instroke cases. So a partial knockoff. I was flattered and pissed but Joe has been knocked off more than anyone. Well it might be close between me and him as to who has been knocked off more but either way we sit at the top of being targets for knockoff shops.

All I am saying is that people shouldn't demean Jack's work by claiming every case with a line of tooling is a knockoff. The tooling on the case at the top is truly BASIC as basic gets and can be found at every flea market belt seller's stall.

If that's the only thing that they took from the Justis case then they really only went for the low-hanging fruit because Jack has an amazing array of cases much more worthy of being copied than this.