Capped or un-capped ferrule and why....?

I believe that the TigerX shaft, has a ferrule with the tenon comming down into the shaft.
It would have to be a soft/light ferrule for it to make a difference in deflection.
But then you would have to worry about the tenon busting out of the side of the shaft.
 
it is a simple fact

The reason for a cap ferrule is strength. All ivory ferrules should be capped, and some of the other new materials used. On the other hand fiber ferrules can have the hole drilled all the way through because off it's strength. Some people like to still thread fiber ferrules because it is very tempermental to heat and will seperate from the tenon and or your shaft. The cap on an ivory ferrule is very necessary, without it the ferrule would crack almost everytime. A fiber pad is also necessary when using a ivory ferrule, this helps prevent chipping your ferrule when the tip gets low and one miscues.
With ivory, (which is what I prefer to use) I use a 5/16-18 tenon 3/4 long which leaves a 1/4 cap. I really do not have a problem with any void between the tenon and ferrule, thats what they make calipers for. ;)
 
socalqman said:
The cap on an ivory ferrule is very necessary, without it the ferrule would crack almost everytime. A fiber pad is also necessary when using a ivory ferrule, this helps prevent chipping your ferrule when the tip gets low and one miscues.

If this statement is correct then why haven't I had one fail in over 10 years? I do not use capped ferrules or fiber pads with ivory or any other ferrule material.

I really do not have a problem with any void between the tenon and ferrule, thats what they make calipers for. ;)

You can measure as close as you want to but if the ferrule seats properly against the shaft's shoulder then the end of the tenon must clear the ferrule's cap. Your calipers just leave a smaller void.
 
Jack Flanagan said:
...never given it a thought, until now,,,next tenon I replace on one of my housecues will be ferrule and tenon cut together.

thanks for the suggestion, time will tell how well it does !

In this procedure, I cut the tenon from the ferrule, bore and plug a dowel in the ferrule leaving a .250 cap. So the dowel runs from the ferrule and into the shaft. Helps prevent the ferrule from breaking at the shoulder and IMO makes it more structurally sound.

Hadj
 
hadjcues said:
In this procedure, I cut the tenon from the ferrule, bore and plug a dowel in the ferrule leaving a .250 cap. So the dowel runs from the ferrule and into the shaft. Helps prevent the ferrule from breaking at the shoulder and IMO makes it more structurally sound.

Hadj
So you leave a void in the shaft rather than in the ferrule?

Tracy
 
RSB-Refugee said:
So you leave a void in the shaft rather than in the ferrule?

Tracy


Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, you will have predator after him for infringing on their patent. :D
 
Sheldon said:
Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, you will have predator after him for infringing on their patent. :D

That may be as uninforcable patent as there is, you can't patent a hole. They give patents today for almost anything.
 
with the minimum wage employees, aka welfare-to-work employees, in the patent office, it's a wonder nobody's patented the special gas expelled by humans after a night of beer and bean burritos,,,"sorry folks, no passing gas 'cause I've got the patent",,,,,,,,,,,,,,,LOL
 
macguy said:
That may be as uninforcable patent as there is, you can't patent a hole. They give patents today for almost anything.

I hear many people say on this forum from time to time that the Predator patent is invalid becasue their patent describes a "hole" or "air", etc. That is completely obsurd. The patent is on a DESIGN that includes a large hollow area, among other things. By all means you can patent that, and they did. The only thing that would invalidate the patent is if someone else did it before them, and their was proof of it. This proof is known as "prior art". I'm not going to debate that aspect of it, as I have no idea if others were doing that before Predator. But I do know that that the techincal issues in the patent are sound.

I'm by no means a patent expert. I'm an engineer for a consumer products company. We frequently have to design around competitor's patents. We also go after competitors when they infringe on our patents. It IS both funny and frustrating when some simple and obvious things get patented, but that's the way it is. In the end, only the lawyers make money.

My experience with patents is that unless the company that infringes upon our patents is a MAJOR competitor, we don't go after them. The court and lawyer costs are not worth the small amount of money we would get from them if we won. If you do go after someone and win, the winninng party would generally get a percentage of the offending party's total sales of the infringing product. What percentage is decided in court.

That said, I think if a custom cuemaker knocked off ANY patent, it would not be worth going after them. The hassle and legal costs in my opinoion would not be worth it if the custom guy makes only a few cues per year. Only if a major manufacturer knocked off someone's patent would it be worth going after them in my opinion.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I hear many people say on this forum from time to time that the Predator patent is invalid becasue their patent describes a "hole" or "air", etc. That is completely obsurd. The patent is on a DESIGN that includes a large hollow area, among other things. By all means you can patent that, and they did. The only thing that would invalidate the patent is if someone else did it before them, and their was proof of it. This proof is known as "prior art". I'm not going to debate that aspect of it, as I have no idea if others were doing that before Predator. But I do know that that the techincal issues in the patent are sound.

I'm by no means a patent expert. I'm an engineer for a consumer products company. We frequently have to design around competitor's patents. We also go after competitors when they infringe on our patents. It IS both funny and frustrating when some simple and obvious things get patented, but that's the way it is. In the end, only the lawyers make money.

My experience with patents is that unless the company that infringes upon our patents is a MAJOR competitor, we don't go after them. The court and lawyer costs are not worth the small amount of money we would get from them if we won. If you do go after someone and win, the winninng party would generally get a percentage of the offending party's total sales of the infringing product. What percentage is decided in court.

That said, I think if a custom cuemaker knocked off ANY patent, it would not be worth going after them. The hassle and legal costs in my opinoion would not be worth it if the custom guy makes only a few cues per year. Only if a major manufacturer knocked off someone's patent would it be worth going after them in my opinion.


You explained it perfectly. It is civil law and would have to represent damages. What would the damages be, a guy sold a few dozen shafts making a grand profit of couple thousand dollars plus you would have to prove intent, he intended to rip off your idea. Patent fights start in the $50,000 range. Here is the real problem. Say a small guy gets a patent, he doesn't even have the resources to protect his patent even if it got completely ripped off. He couldn't even afford to talk to a lawyer about it. And if he did pursue it, and his claim turned out to be incorrect or even frivolous as it may be if the money involved was so small. He could himself end up being sued for the legal expenses of the other party that could be tens of thousands of dollars. If a small guy has a patent he is best off in most cases selling the rights to a big manufacture either outright or for a percentage and moving on to the next project. Or just not bothering to patent at all and just produce the item with the reality that it will be ripped off and hopefully he will have made some money by being in the market place first.

I'll tell you a story about screwing with big guys that have money. A pizza place opened near me called Block buster pizza. I started going there because the pizza was good and it was on my way when I walk to the beach in the morning. I got to know the owner and one day about a month after he opens he shows me a letter he got from Blockbuster video saying he could not use the name Block buster. He thought it was a joke and called the newspaper trying to make it look like they were trying to push around a small guy. He got quite a few write ups and even TV. It went before a judge and he was told he had to change the name. So he changes it to "Busterblocks, block busting pizza". More letters from blockbuster and back in front of the judge who reprimands him for trying to screw around with his ruling and he is told in no uncertain terms the name must be changed. He is getting a lot of publicity and business is really good so he screws around not taking down the sign giving interviews and so on. Finally he does change the name to Jail house pizza because he is close to the city jail. He thought that was the end of it, remember he hasn't spent any money at this time yet and got all kinds of free publicity. He had only had just appeared at a few court hearings. A month later I go in and he shows me a letter from Wayne Huizenga's lawyers with a bill for $45,000. as if he was just going to cut a check. Now he finally calls a lawyer and get the bad news, unless he wants to fight it and run up even more bills for himself and Mr. Wayne Huizenga he should work out a deal to pay or it could end up costing him $100,000. To make a long story short he is now working as a waiter and had to get rid of the pizza place to get himself out of this.
 
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Jeeeez, ya make one little joke, and everyone gets all serious.... :)

Seriously though, while it's great to pay attention to them, people shouldn't get too caught up in small details, or they lose sight of the bigger picture.
 
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Sheldon said:
Jeeeez, ya make one little joke, and everyone gets all serious.... :)
I knew you were joking, Sheldon. Actually by Hadj's desription, he is not infringing at all. It sounds quite a bit different than Predator's design.

Tracy
 
You can take the whole procedure one step further as well, and simply cut a tenon right in your ferrule material.....
 
Sheldon said:
You can take the whole procedure one step further as well, and simply cut a tenon right in your ferrule material.....
I am under the impression that ferrule materials are heavier than maple. Wouldn't that increase the squirt characteristics?

Tracy
 
RSB-Refugee said:
I am under the impression that ferrule materials are heavier than maple. Wouldn't that increase the squirt characteristics?

Depends on the material, and YES.
 
Sheldon said:
Depends on the material, and YES.



Sheldon, I'm curious, Have you ever used this method with any species of wood as your ferrule material? And do you know of any good methods of impregnating wood with an epoxy or such for simular high impact uses? Greg
 
RSB-Refugee said:
So you leave a void in the shaft rather than in the ferrule?

Tracy
No void in the shaft.I cut the tenon on the ferrule, drill a hole at the base of tenon up to .250 before the cap then plug it with a dowel. Bore the shaft, slip the tenon in that's it. No holes uncovered.

What predator has is a hole drilled at the shafts end. As to how they put on the ferrule, I'm not aware of. I do ferrules 1/2" and 3/4" lengths. What the heck, I even have a tapered ferrule on one of my shafts... don't know if I'm infringing on somebody else's ideas or patents. Thought of it, tried and did it and liked it that way :D

Hadj
 
hadjcues said:
What predator has is a hole drilled at the shafts end. As to how they put on the ferrule, I'm not aware of. I do ferrules 1/2" and 3/4" lengths. What the heck, I even have a tapered ferrule on one of my shafts... don't know if I'm infringing on somebody else's ideas or patents. Thought of it, tried and did it and liked it that way :D
Hadj,
I never claimed, or insinuated that you were infringing. Sheldon and I, were joking. I am sure neither of us or anyone else here assumed that you were. I think after reading your last post, I understand better what you are describing. Others stated, to get the shoulders of shaft and ferrule flush, a void even if very tiny, must be between the tenon and cap. If that is true, then the same would hold true for tenoning into the shaft.

Tracy
 
Cue Crazy said:
Sheldon, I'm curious, Have you ever used this method with any species of wood as your ferrule material? And do you know of any good methods of impregnating wood with an epoxy or such for simular high impact uses? Greg

I've never tried using wood for ferrules. I don't know anything about impregnating wood with an epoxy or such either.
The cue I've been using for over a year now does not have any ferrule at all.
(Bob Jewett style) <G> Just a fiber pad on the end of the shaft. I break with it as well.
 
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