Carom Shot Help

[Perk]

My final loss in a tourney this weekend was a missed carom. I seem to struggle caroming object balls off of other object balls, even if they are fairly close to a pocket. I attempted to search the forums for the answer , but it seemed all threads mentioned caroming the cueball.

Anyone got a suggestion or tip on how to help me understand the concept of caroming object balls?

Aside from the scratching off the cue ball, anyone got any drills they use for practicing this?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Billy_Bob]

Shame on you for missing!

Your punishment is as follows... Set up the SAME EXACT shot. Mark the table with chalk (white chalk, or pool chalk) where the balls go, and shoot the same exact shot 100 times.

Also throw all 15 balls on the table. Practice caroming each ball off the cue ball so that the object ball goes into a pocket. Shoot the object ball with your cue in other words. Move the cue ball away from pockets and the rail as needed.

You just need to do this practice daily for about a year is all. At first it will be frustrating and you will not make anything. But then you start to make one or two. Then you begin to make more and more. It is OK to miss, you are learning with every shot.

After a year of this, you will just "see" the shot. It will just come naturally because you have been practicing it so much.

Practice the things you are not good at, practice the things which are frustrating...

 

[Gerry]

Well said Billy Bob. To make it fun, play a game with another player where you only get points when you make a carom into a pocket or something like that. We use to play a similar game where only banks, kicks, combos and caroms counted. We did it for something fun to do, not realizing our 9ball game would go thru the roof!. Make it fun, and you will enjoy the learning. Oh, and if you have access to a billiards table......well, thats another story all together........

Gerry

 

[CaptainJR]

I'm paying particular attention to this post. I have a problem with this as well. That is making an object ball carom off another ball. I do much better making the cue ball carom off a ball to pocket another with the cue ball. In that instance I've been taught to just hit the cue a little low with a little inside english to get it to come off at the natural angle. Works pretty good. But I don't seem to be able to estimate how much an object balls forward momentum will take it off the natural angle.

 

[Perk]

I appreciate the replys so far. I did note in my original post that I was looking for suggestions other than scratching object balls off the cue ball. I am aware of this drill/game, but am interested in object ball carom drills if available.

I am looking for a method to the madness, or a theory, a tangible way to approach carom shots. I realize that repetition will help develop a feel, but its impossible to shoot every possible carom that could come up. Seems like there would have to be a 90 degree rule or something about tangent lines to be a starting point when considering a carom.

Thanks again.

 

[Cornerman]

Anyone got a suggestion or tip on how to help me understand the concept of caroming object balls?

Aside from the scratching off the cue ball, anyone got any drills they use for practicing this? !

Remember that once the object ball has any forward roll on it, the "90° rule" is no longer applicable.

So, you either have to steam the hell out of the shot to make sure that the first object ball has no spin, or you have to account for the spin of the first object ball.

I don't know if Dr. Dave has any videos of simple and advanced kiss/carom shots to show this, but he should.

Fred

 

[jsp]

I am looking for a method to the madness, or a theory, a tangible way to approach carom shots. I realize that repetition will help develop a feel, but its impossible to shoot every possible carom that could come up. Seems like there would have to be a 90 degree rule or something about tangent lines to be a starting point when considering a carom.

What else are you looking for other than the 90 degree rule? Refer to the diagram...

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html
START(
%Ba1J4%I[7D3%P[0U9%Qk5B0%W\9F6%X`2J9%Yj5D1%Z`3J9%eB5a6

)END

If you want to carom the CB off the 2 to make the 9 in the side, you first imagine the line the CB must travel from the 2 to the 9 (brown arrow). Note that origin of this line doesn't go straight through the 2, but is a half ball's width from the 2, marking the center of the CB when it impacts the 2 (it does matter on long carom shots).

You then imagine another line (green arrow) that is perpendicular to this first line that goes directly through the center of the 2. Extrapolate this line and find the point where it intersects the rail (point A). This point on the rail is your new target, or your new "pocket" so to speak. Then just shoot the 2 into this new aim point, being sure you hit the CB with stun (as Fred said, the 90 degree rule won't work if you have any forward or backward role on the CB upon impact with the 2).

EDIT: For most carom shots, the 90 degree rule will work. Sometimes the 30 degree rule will be much easier to execute, but not all carom shots will be setup perfectly to employ the 30 degree rule. Any shot that you can use the 30 degree rule, you can use the 90 degree rule, but not vice versa.

EDIT2: Sorry, I just reread your original post, and you said you needed help with caroms involving object balls with object balls. I thought you just needed help with simple CB to OB billiards. Sorry.

 

[jsp]

In hopes of redeeming myself from my previous post blunder...

As far as caroming object balls with object balls, you can still use the 90 degree rule as a starting point. You just have to tweak the 90 degrees (shorten the angle) by how much forward roll you think the first object ball will have when it makes contact with the second OB.

As Fred mentioned, if you want to keep the 90 degree rule, you'd probably have to blast the first OB to guarantee minimal forward spin when it contacts the second OB. If you think there would be little forward roll (but not complete natural roll), then you'd have to reduce 90 degrees to maybe 80 or 70 degrees. This requires a bit of intuitive judgment.

For the cases where the OB will experience full natural roll when it contacts the second OB, then you can use the 30 degree rule, but only if the OB to OB contact is close to a half ball hit. If it's more or less than half ball, then the 30 degrees should be reduce to 25 or 20 degrees. Again, this requres a bit of IJ.

 

[Snapshot9]

You have to go back

and pass geometry and physics first. Didn't your
teachers tell you you would need it later on ... lol

 

[Andrew Manning]

30 degree rule

In hopes of redeeming myself from my previous post blunder...

As far as caroming object balls with object balls, you can still use the 90 degree rule as a starting point. You just have to tweak the 90 degrees (shorten the angle) by how much forward roll you think the first object ball will have when it makes contact with the second OB.

As Fred mentioned, if you want to keep the 90 degree rule, you'd probably have to blast the first OB to guarantee minimal forward spin when it contacts the second OB. If you think there would be little forward roll (but not complete natural roll), then you'd have to reduce 90 degrees to maybe 80 or 70 degrees. This requires a bit of intuitive judgment.

For the cases where the OB will experience full natural roll when it contacts the second OB, then you can use the 30 degree rule, but only if the OB to OB contact is close to a half ball hit. If it's more or less than half ball, then the 30 degrees should be reduce to 25 or 20 degrees. Again, this requres a bit of IJ.

The 30 degree rule is probably the best thing you can learn to help with these shots. When a rolling ball contacts a stationary ball, anywhere from a 1/4 ball hit to a 3/4 ball hit, the rolling ball is deflected about 30 degrees from its original line of travel.

It's a little counterintuitive since the stationary ball goes in completely different directions with a 1/4 ball, 1/2 ball, and 3/4 bal hit, but if the moving ball is rolling naturally, it always diverts about 30 degrees from the direction it was moving before contact. Obviously very thin and very full hits don't work this way.

To get a feel for caroms of rolling balls (and on most soft-to-medium speed shots your OB is rolling) throw the balls out on the table and start running balls using soft-to-medium speed and one tip of 12 o'clock english on every shot. Pay attention to how the cue-ball caroms off the object balls as you run, and you'll get a feel for how an object ball will usually carom off another.

For hard hits where there's not much distance between the two object balls, the first object ball may not be rolling naturally when it hits the second ball, which means the angle may be significantly more than 30 degrees, depending on fullness of hit.

All that make sense?

-Andrew

 

[Bob Jewett]

The 30 degree rule is probably the best thing you can learn to help with these shots. When a rolling ball contacts a stationary ball, anywhere from a 1/4 ball hit to a 3/4 ball hit, the rolling ball is deflected about 30 degrees from its original line of travel.
...

Some diagrams illustrating this are in the article:

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/1997-02.pdf

Often the needed angle will be wider than the half-ball angle, and then you need to crank up the speed a little. Practice will tell you how much.

 

[Billy_Bob]

For learning the 90 degree and 30 degree rules, get Dr. Dave's DVD here...
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/dvd_description.html

*Seeing* these shots demonstrated made everything click for me. I didn't "get it" by just reading about it. And don't get the DVD if you jusp plan to watch it like a movie. Hit pause frequently, diagram the shots on paper, and practice them like there is no tomorrow.