Case John Barton had at the ICC Show!

CocoboloCowboy said:
IMHO I was only trying to share a Unique Case, and wish it had not turned in to WW-III, and I still feel the CASE IS UNIQUE!!!!!!!:banghead:
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I think it's a nice case too. If I owned a Southwest cue, I'd like to have this case to match it. What would a case like this cost?
 
I think that Mr. Justis interiors are also made in China and he also outsourced his cases to China with his one consent? Justis West cases?
 
Roadie said:
However the accusation was refuted by Mr. Barton and proven to be false. Do you feel that it is civil to perpetuate an accusation, to repeat it although you have no proof and also have no concern in the matter?


Mr. Barton, for all of his brashness and rudeness, is very open about what he does and why he does it. He has explained onerously, loudly, and frankly more than was necessary what drives his decisions.



If you could care less about Mr. Barton then why do you choose to hijack a thread and repeat accusations that are untrue? Let me clarify that to say that after being a witness to the entire Justis/Barton debacle I find Mr. Barton to be rude, uncouth, uncivil, lacking in social skills, a poor businessman, and generally obnoxious when it comes to him talking about his business. I find he has a lot of passion for it and that manifests itself poorly in how he expresses that passion here. But I did not see any proof whatsoever that Mr. Barton copied Mr. Justis' cases. Mr. Justis did not provide any but Mr. Barton provided plenty of proof to the contrary.


What has Mr. Barton said that you have proven to be untrue? Sir, I respect very much your right to espouse your opinion, however in the interest of fairness you should perhaps consider not extending that opinion into slander, which is what you do when you publicly accuse Mr. Barton of being a liar.


Whether Mr. Barton actually sits down and makes the cases himself or not I hope that you understand that a very great deal of the world's most desired, expensive and collectible items were not made by the person whose name is on them. My Porsche was probably not even seen by a person named Porsche before leaving the factory. I don't see you holding Mr. Justis to the same standard for the beautiful collaborative cases that he and Mr. Ross work together on.




Sir, I believe from your own testimony here that you are expert enough to know the difference between a licensed brand product such as an Adams Balabushka series cue and a cue produced by George Balabushka, which as you also well know used a lot of Szamboti blanks among others. In fact, if I may nitpick for a moment, the signature on the Adams cue is not an in-common thing because George did not sign his cues.

I also wonder sir if your intention is to say that the purchasers of Mr. Barton's cases are somehow not getting what they pay for? What is it that you feel they are paying for? I see a product that is clearly defined on the first page of Mr. Barton's website as being made through a team effort. It is clear that Mr. Barton is the driving force of that team and the one who accepts full risk and responsibility for the product. I have not yet spoken with Mr. Barton but I assume that when I do he will endeavor to build me a case according to my wishes using the best of his abilities. That is what I will be paying for and frankly I feel I will get it.


Also, are you 100% certain that Mr. Melton is the only person who does any work on his cases. Not that I care because I am going to buy one even if he has a shed full of elves doing them. But my question is would your attitude change if you knew that Mr. Melton has ever had any help in building his cases?



Very well. And would your attitude change about Mr. Melton's work if he were to hire someone to help him to build his cases? Or do you think that his work only has value if only he touches the work? Also would you be so kind as to address the point I made about Mr. Justis' collaborative works with Mr. Ross? Do you feel that those works are any less valuable because Mr. Justis himself did not do all the work on them?



I also wonder sir if your intention is to say that the purchasers of Mr. Barton's cases are somehow not getting what they pay for? What is it that you feel they are paying for? I see a product that is clearly defined on the first page of Mr. Barton's website as being made through a team effort. It is clear that Mr. Barton is the driving force of that team and the one who accepts full risk and responsibility for the product. I have not yet spoken with Mr. Barton but I assume that when I do he will endeavor to build me a case according to my wishes using the best of his abilities. That is what I will be paying for and frankly I feel I will get it.


I agree with you about standing up for your principles Mr. Rittel. I don't agree however with slandering someone's name willfully through the repetition of false accusations and publicly calling them a liar without proof of such. Furthermore I understand that you respect Mr. Melton's work more because he does all the work and have no respect for Mr. Barton's work because of how he has elected to build his case using a team, but do not understand why you then do not denigrate Mr. Justis' work, nor any other builder of cases or cues who do not do all the work themselves. I think that if one is going to stand on principle then one should apply that principle equally.

Do you agree that a moral person should treat everyone equally using the same standards?
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However the accusation was refuted by Mr. Barton and proven to be false. Do you feel that it is civil to perpetuate an accusation, to repeat it although you have no proof and also have no concern in the matter?

Like I have said if you choose to believe anything Mr. Barton says that is up to you and you alone, however, as far as Mr. Barton refuting it, this is not true, in fact when Mr. Justis offer to post emails as proof Mr. Barton Shut up.

But I did not see any proof whatsoever that Mr. Barton copied Mr. Justis' cases. Mr. Justis did not provide any but Mr. Barton provided plenty of proof to the contrary.

I think you need to read that thread again, or maybe we are talking about another thread, or maybe you are more involved and have more of a stake in this than it appears. Maybe you are some one using a multiple account, and defending themself, but maybe not!!!!!

What has Mr. Barton said that you have proven to be untrue? Sir, I respect very much your right to espouse your opinion, however in the interest of fairness you should perhaps consider not extending that opinion into slander, which is what you do when you publicly accuse Mr. Barton of being a liar.

Unless you are John Barton how can you refute anything I have said or Mr. Justis has said as not being true, you are only offering an opinion that is also extending toward slander.


I also wonder sir if your intention is to say that the purchasers of Mr. Barton's cases are somehow not getting what they pay for? What is it that you feel they are paying for? I see a product that is clearly defined on the first page of Mr. Barton's website as being made through a team effort. It is clear that Mr. Barton is the driving force of that team and the one who accepts full risk and responsibility for the product. I have not yet spoken with Mr. Barton but I assume that when I do he will endeavor to build me a case according to my wishes using the best of his abilities. That is what I will be paying for and frankly I feel I will get it.

You will get what you pay for nothing less and nothing more!!!!:)



I am afraid I don't see where Mr. Justis' involvement has ever kept Mr. Barton from reacting. It is unusual to see that Mr. Barton is not here yet but perhaps he has finally decided that it's better for him not to be drawn into these types of arguments.

Or maybe he is here after all, maybe you and John are the same person:wink:
 
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manwon said:




However the accusation was refuted by Mr. Barton and proven to be false. Do you feel that it is civil to perpetuate an accusation, to repeat it although you have no proof and also have no concern in the matter?

Like I have said if you choose to believe anything Mr. Barton says that is up to you and you alone, however, as far as Mr. Barton refuting it, this is not true, in fact when Mr. Justis offer to post emails as proof Mr. Barton Shut up.

But I did not see any proof whatsoever that Mr. Barton copied Mr. Justis' cases. Mr. Justis did not provide any but Mr. Barton provided plenty of proof to the contrary.

I think you need to read that thread again, or maybe we are talking about another thread, or maybe you are more involved and have more of a stake in this than it appears. Maybe you some one using a multiple account, and defend themselves, but maybe not!!!!!

What has Mr. Barton said that you have proven to be untrue? Sir, I respect very much your right to espouse your opinion, however in the interest of fairness you should perhaps consider not extending that opinion into slander, which is what you do when you publicly accuse Mr. Barton of being a liar.

Unless you are John Barton how can you validate anything I have said or Mr. Justis has said as not being true, you are only offering an opinion that is also extending toward slander.


I also wonder sir if your intention is to say that the purchasers of Mr. Barton's cases are somehow not getting what they pay for? What is it that you feel they are paying for? I see a product that is clearly defined on the first page of Mr. Barton's website as being made through a team effort. It is clear that Mr. Barton is the driving force of that team and the one who accepts full risk and responsibility for the product. I have not yet spoken with Mr. Barton but I assume that when I do he will endeavor to build me a case according to my wishes using the best of his abilities. That is what I will be paying for and frankly I feel I will get it.
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Sir, I cannot know if anything Mr. Barton says is true or not. However since you claim he has lied where is your proof of such?

As to Mr. Justis' claims, I have read through that whole sorry mess and what I come away with is that Mr. Justis is upset at Mr. Barton over some message that he received wherein Mr. Barton stated that he would bring in a vinyl case that looked similar to a Justis but in fact never did so. Mr. Barton explained his position ad nauseum. I don't know which of the endless Barton/Justis threads you are referring to but didn't Mr. Barton tell Mr. Justis that he had made peace with himself over the situation and resolve to not engage Mr. Justis about this any more?

Now Mr. Justis is also claiming that the J.Flowers series of cases are copies of his but I have yet to see evidence of this. I see a case that is made in the same style as the old Jay Flowers cases just as Mr. Justis' early cases were also. Do you honestly feel that the J.Flowers case is a copy of Mr. Justis cases or is just a similar looking case made in a similar style? Do you feel that other people ought to be allowed to build cases in a similar style if they wish too?

I understand that you are a cue maker? Mr. Justis seems to be claiming ownership over the way a case is constructed as belonging to him if I understand him correctly. In effect he is saying that if another case has a lid that is done similarly, or if the pockets are constructed in a similar manner then the case is a copy. As a cue maker would you allow any other person to tell you that you were copying them because you made a cue with a stainless steel joint for example?

I have not seen one single J. Flowers case that looks just like, or even close to any Jack Justis cue case. Have you? In fact, it's very difficult to find any two Justis cases on this forum that look like each other so Mr. Justis' cases cover a broad range of looks that are all unlike the J.Flowers cases.

Do you disagree?
 
Roadie said:
Sir, I cannot know if anything Mr. Barton says is true or not. However since you claim he has lied where is your proof of such?

As to Mr. Justis' claims, I have read through that whole sorry mess and what I come away with is that Mr. Justis is upset at Mr. Barton over some message that he received wherein Mr. Barton stated that he would bring in a vinyl case that looked similar to a Justis but in fact never did so. Mr. Barton explained his position ad nauseum. I don't know which of the endless Barton/Justis threads you are referring to but didn't Mr. Barton tell Mr. Justis that he had made peace with himself over the situation and resolve to not engage Mr. Justis about this any more?

Now Mr. Justis is also claiming that the J.Flowers series of cases are copies of his but I have yet to see evidence of this. I see a case that is made in the same style as the old Jay Flowers cases just as Mr. Justis' early cases were also. Do you honestly feel that the J.Flowers case is a copy of Mr. Justis cases or is just a similar looking case made in a similar style? Do you feel that other people ought to be allowed to build cases in a similar style if they wish too?

I understand that you are a cue maker? Mr. Justis seems to be claiming ownership over the way a case is constructed as belonging to him if I understand him correctly. In effect he is saying that if another case has a lid that is done similarly, or if the pockets are constructed in a similar manner then the case is a copy. As a cue maker would you allow any other person to tell you that you were copying them because you made a cue with a stainless steel joint for example?

I have not seen one single J. Flowers case that looks just like, or even close to any Jack Justis cue case. Have you? In fact, it's very difficult to find any two Justis cases on this forum that look like each other so Mr. Justis' cases cover a broad range of looks that are all unlike the J.Flowers cases.

Do you disagree?
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Every thing you are saying sounds very familar, but as I said you certainly know a great deal about this subject.

John is that you!!!!!!:)
 
Originally Posted by Roadie
Sir, I cannot know if anything Mr. Barton says is true or not. However since you claim he has lied where is your proof of such?

As to Mr. Justis' claims, I have read through that whole sorry mess and what I come away with is that Mr. Justis is upset at Mr. Barton over some message that he received wherein Mr. Barton stated that he would bring in a vinyl case that looked similar to a Justis but in fact never did so. Mr. Barton explained his position ad nauseum. I don't know which of the endless Barton/Justis threads you are referring to but didn't Mr. Barton tell Mr. Justis that he had made peace with himself over the situation and resolve to not engage Mr. Justis about this any more?

Now Mr. Justis is also claiming that the J.Flowers series of cases are copies of his but I have yet to see evidence of this. I see a case that is made in the same style as the old Jay Flowers cases just as Mr. Justis' early cases were also. Do you honestly feel that the J.Flowers case is a copy of Mr. Justis cases or is just a similar looking case made in a similar style? Do you feel that other people ought to be allowed to build cases in a similar style if they wish too?

I understand that you are a cue maker? Mr. Justis seems to be claiming ownership over the way a case is constructed as belonging to him if I understand him correctly. In effect he is saying that if another case has a lid that is done similarly, or if the pockets are constructed in a similar manner then the case is a copy. As a cue maker would you allow any other person to tell you that you were copying them because you made a cue with a stainless steel joint for example?

I have not seen one single J. Flowers case that looks just like, or even close to any Jack Justis cue case. Have you? In fact, it's very difficult to find any two Justis cases on this forum that look like each other so Mr. Justis' cases cover a broad range of looks that are all unlike the J.Flowers cases.

Do you disagree?


manwon said:
Every thing you are saying sounds very familar, but as I said you certainly know a great deal about this subject.

John is that you!!!!!!:)
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You think?[/COLOR]

In a message dated 2/26/2008 7:57:06 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jb@jbideas.com writes:


On a personal note I am getting married again and about to settle down to start a family after 20 years "on the road" so to speak.
 
manwon said:
Every thing you are saying sounds very familar, but as I said you certainly know a great deal about this subject.

John is that you!!!!!!:)
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Mr. Rittel,

Do you care to discuss the factual basis of the subjects you brought up or not? I was merely responding to the claims and accusations that you made about someone else.

If not then this discussion can end. I am already far more involved than I ever intended to be.

I just don't like to see injustice meted out. I only know as much as I have read on this forum. Do you have anything besides what Mr. Barton and Mr. Justis have said?

In my opinion a morally sound person substantiates the claims that they make or they refrain from making them. You have stated that you are standing on your principles. If you call Mr. Barton a liar then prove it factually. On the other points, value, what it collectible, design theft and so on I had hoped that we could just have a nice discussion on those things.

I am just trying to have a civil discussion with you since you are a cue maker. If you do not want this then we can end it here. I have offered you several counterpoints and questions. My apologies if I have misunderstood that you were willing to have a civil and courteous discussion on points of fact.

I certainly believe that it is difficult for you to have any sort of civil discussion about Mr. Barton in light of your well known disdain for Mr. Barton. I however will not be willing to to engage you the same way he does and make this a shouting match. I see the issues one way and you see them another and as two gentlemen we could simply debate the merits of the situation point for point. But if I attempt to deal in facts and you counter with abstractions we are doing no good for either of us.

So by your next answer I will know whether we can discuss our points as gentlemen or whether I should not continue at all.

Thank you for your consideration Mr. Rittel.
 
Mr. Justis,

Do you have anything to say about the examples of design similarities between your cases and the Jay Flowers cases that predate yours?

In the other thread that you addressed to me I laid out several things I found and would appreciate your response.
 
Roadie said:
Mr. Rittel,

Do you care to discuss the factual basis of the subjects you brought up or not? I was merely responding to the claims and accusations that you made about someone else.

If not then this discussion can end. I am already far more involved than I ever intended to be.

I just don't like to see injustice meted out. I only know as much as I have read on this forum. Do you have anything besides what Mr. Barton and Mr. Justis have said?

In my opinion a morally sound person substantiates the claims that they make or they refrain from making them. You have stated that you are standing on your principles. If you call Mr. Barton a liar then prove it factually. On the other points, value, what it collectible, design theft and so on I had hoped that we could just have a nice discussion on those things.

I am just trying to have a civil discussion with you since you are a cue maker. If you do not want this then we can end it here. I have offered you several counterpoints and questions. My apologies if I have misunderstood that you were willing to have a civil and courteous discussion on points of fact.

I certainly believe that it is difficult for you to have any sort of civil discussion about Mr. Barton in light of your well known disdain for Mr. Barton. I however will not be willing to to engage you the same way he does and make this a shouting match. I see the issues one way and you see them another and as two gentlemen we could simply debate the merits of the situation point for point. But if I attempt to deal in facts and you counter with abstractions we are doing no good for either of us.

So by your next answer I will know whether we can discuss our points as gentlemen or whether I should not continue at all.

Thank you for your consideration Mr. Rittel.
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Thank you also for the banter, Mr. Barton I am through with this thread. :wink:
 
Blah, blah, Blah. This is my top five for new forum ideas
1. Mindyourownbusiness.blogspot.com
2. Whocares?.blogspot.com
3. Iamalwaysright.blogspot.com
4. Pm'saregreat,lookhowsmartiam?.blogspot.com
5. Ilovetopoundsand.blogspot.com

It is what it is !

Hey Cowboy, what were the chances you thought this thread would turn to this?
 
Beyond Nice...

Wow!

Thanks for sharing the case C-Cowboy!

I am very impressed. Though I have never even considered cases as a collectible, I am starting to see the light! I am anxious to research more!

Thanks again. :grin:
 
Gwen's up said:
Wow!

Thanks for sharing the case C-Cowboy!

I am very impressed. Though I have never even considered cases as a collectible, I am starting to see the light! I am anxious to research more!

Thanks again. :grin:
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Start here www.jbcases.com - at the bottom of the first page is a list of case makers.

Be sure to go to the gallery to see more Barton cases as well as pictures from other case maker's work. The site needs some work as you have to really dig to find the interesting stuff.

I just spent a few days there, more than I wanted to. Barton talks way too much but he does build interesting cases.
 
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