Cavernous Pockets...

Anybody remember the old Valley bar tables with big corners and smaller side pockets?


Been trying to remember some bar tables I played on in the late sixties and early seventies. The side pockets were to be avoided except for the easiest shots. Made my bones on one of those tables when I was fifteen. Always some strange traffic in the topless joint with four or six challenge tables but there was a little group of regulars and a couple three dancers that played every night. Never forget a girl built like a brick shithouse and a very good pool player. Add that she was playing "in uniform" and she was very tough competition, especially for a fifteen year old!

I was playing a fairly recently retired pro boxer out of Houston when I hooked myself on one of his balls shooting the eight ball. Didn't want any misunderstanding so I ambled over where he was talking in a group of regulars and told him the plan was to kick off of the end rail, hit my ball, then carom off of his ball about a foot from the side pocket to make the eight in the side. No question it was a legal shot but William wasn't a guy I wanted a misunderstanding with! After I had explained the shot everyone was watching when I knocked it in like it was on rails. That one shot announced I could run with the big dogs, at least in that little bar.

Those old tables were a lot like an old snooker table I played on later. What would be the much tougher shot on most tables was the easier shot on them. I started banking on the snooker table just to get better angles on the side pockets. Despite the old axiom sometimes banks were easier shots than cuts on the snooker tables or those old bar tables. No doubt in my mind.

When I "see" the bank and the cut seems iffy, I am banking. Nothing worse than taking the shot playing the odds when there is another shot I like better at the moment and missing. Sometimes smart pool just ain't.

Hu
 
While this thread is about pocket size we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that if all of the tables came out of a stamping machine identical in all respects they still would play very differently. One is by a door. One by a window that doesn't open but lets in late afternoon and evening sunlight. Some are by AC/Heater vents. Some are in high traffic areas, some with few people walking by. Near a bathroom?

Then there are the balls. Even if a hall buys decent balls with the sets soon mixed the balls play differently and poorly although we don't usually recognize this. I bought a thirty dollar set of balls to cut up for a project. Lost interest in the project so one day I took the balls to a well ran solid pool hall. I was truly amazed how much better my thirty dollar balls played than the hall balls! Reminded me of an old road man. His first move was to get his balls on the table. Failing that, at least his cue ball. He said if he couldn't get either his entire set or at least his cue ball on the table it might not be a game he wants to make. It was that important to him.

The tables get a little age on them, recovered a few times, totally different beasts! I shot at a hall with blue label Diamonds set up by a skilled mechanic. Then three or four tables were recovered by a local guy that was trying to make his bones in the table business. The pocket dimensions were spot on but something was vastly wrong. I think slight differences in cushion angles, I couldn't test without being very obvious. Regardless these tables, finest almost new Diamonds available, were crap to play on! I didn't know which ones had been recovered by the local guy but as I found them I made a point of remembering them. An OK guy, the pool hall owner was a good guy too. He wasn't trying to cheap out as much as help a local guy get started. I suspect those tables cost the owner a lot of money. Recreational customers may not realize a table is playing poorly but they recognize that they play better at one hall than another.

When the red dot balls(edit: Sorry, unclear here. I am talking about a measle ball) were getting popular and played with in tournaments fairly often I plunked down my thirty dollars from a trusted supplier and bought one. Compared to the I believe red circle cue balls in that hall if memory serves, the red dot ball rolled long, between a foot and a foot and a half long on three rail banks would be typical. Not a ball I wanted to practice with and then play with a house ball.

While we have to add weather conditions to be considered to a greater degree outdoors, there is still a lot that can't be ignored indoors. I believe reading these often overlooked conditions may be worth 2%-5%. At 750 fargo just considering room and table conditions might be worth 35 points or more, enough to tilt the balance sometimes when two pro's are playing heads up in a tournament.

Hu
Keep in mind pool balls, under established rules, can vary as much as 1/2 oz. weight.

That means the CB can be 1/2 oz. lighter than the 1 & 2 balls while the 3 & 4 balls can
be only 1/4 oz. lighter and the 5, 6, 7 weigh the same as the CB and the 8 1/4 oz. lighter
and 9 & 10 balls 1/2 oz. lighter than the CB. Now that is a very mismatched set and it
will play differently than if you played with a set of Aramith Tournament Pro Cup in a 10
ball match. Nonetheless, the mismatched weight set is still legal in a sanctioned event
because the rules allow for it. Talk about screwy rule but it was enacted because of the
economics of having to replace pool balls less frequently. Now toss in big pockets….Ugh.
 
Keep in mind pool balls, under established rules, can vary as much as 1/2 oz. weight.

That means the CB can be 1/2 oz. lighter than the 1 & 2 balls while the 3 & 4 balls can
be only 1/4 oz. lighter and the 5, 6, 7 weigh the same as the CB and the 8 1/4 oz. lighter
and 9 & 10 balls 1/2 oz. lighter than the CB. Now that is a very mismatched set and it
will play differently than if you played with a set of Aramith Tournament Pro Cup in a 10
ball match. Nonetheless, the mismatched weight set is still legal in a sanctioned event
because the rules allow for it. Talk about screwy rule but it was enacted because of the
economics of having to replace pool balls less frequently. Now toss in big pockets….Ugh.
Half oz. would be 14grams. We've weighed a few of our red-circles and the oldest/lightest was 6grams light. Most of them were around 3grams off. Same thing on the one-balls, around 3-6grams light. My buddie's like new Centennials were 5.8-6.0oz's each.
 
Half oz. would be 14grams. We've weighed a few of our red-circles and the oldest/lightest was 6grams light. Most of them were around 3grams off. Same thing on the one-balls, around 3-6grams light. My buddie's like new Centennials were 5.8-6.0oz's each.
I bought an extra set of Centennials 20 years ago and a Aramith travel case. It was mostly because of lousy
sets of balls at the local pool halls and a mishmash of cue balls until the red dot came along. Since then I’ve
had 7-8 sets of Centennials & currently have 3 sets. I carry a dozen different cue balls in a pool equipment bag
and my reason is to have pool balls with closely matched weight and a selection of clean cue balls that I can
usually substitute one of mine for in a tournament. It never ceases to amaze me how many people will ask why
they can draw one cue ball better than another or that follow seems harder to accomplish. Check the weights.
 
Keep in mind pool balls, under established rules, can vary as much as 1/2 oz. weight.

That means the CB can be 1/2 oz. lighter than the 1 & 2 balls while the 3 & 4 balls can
be only 1/4 oz. lighter and the 5, 6, 7 weigh the same as the CB and the 8 1/4 oz. lighter
and 9 & 10 balls 1/2 oz. lighter than the CB. Now that is a very mismatched set and it
will play differently than if you played with a set of Aramith Tournament Pro Cup in a 10
ball match. Nonetheless, the mismatched weight set is still legal in a sanctioned event
because the rules allow for it. Talk about screwy rule but it was enacted because of the
economics of having to replace pool balls less frequently. Now toss in big pockets….Ugh.


Sorting and weight consistency have a lot to do with the price of balls. Then they go to the pool hall and often multiple sets of balls are cleaned together. Just careless handling by customers and hired hands can lead to sets mixed too. When I started paying attention it wasn't unusual to see three different designs in a tray of balls so at least three different sets of balls combined, maybe more. Also cue balls are replaced pretty regularly at many halls so it is easy to get different weights and different resin cures. Half an ounce would be a huge difference but a gram or two can make a big difference.

In the high run challenge every year at the Derby one pro player brings his own clean matched set of balls that he and his buddies use. I would object mightily to this. I also would insist on a new set of quality balls if I was to play a challenge match, not that there is any danger of that now!

Hu
 
I think Hu described what happens more often than less often with the majority of pool halls.

Buying a nice set of pool balls and a carrying case is such a relatively small investment for
the enjoyment it brings over the years versus playing with the pool balls at the local hall. It
is akin to owning your own cue versus playing with a house cue. The game is more enjoyable.

Your own cue doesn’t have to be anything more than a SP cue to appreciate the difference of
using a house cue. Now some pool halls do maintain their equipment, replace worn sets and
clean the balls and tables often. Cudos to those smart business owners. It doesn’t take a lot.
 

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I remember years ago listening to Grady doing commentary on Accu-stats matches and him commenting on how the players were asking for tighter pockets instead of having to play on what Grady called 'cavernous' pockets used back then. At the time I didn't pay too much attention to this because it was what I was used to seeing at the time.

Last night I watched a Sigel/Davenport final from 1992 and I after watching these recent tournaments with 4 to 4 1/4 inch pockets I couldn't help but be amazed on how big those old pockets looked compared to what is used today. I have to admit it, Grady was right!
Here are photos of the pockets at newly opened Sierra Billiards in Fresno that has both 4 1/2” & 4 1/4” CP.
Personally speaking, 4 1/2 “ CP seem acceptable; 4 1/4” are almost ideal but I’d still like to play on 4” CP.

4.75” are too big or heaven forbid, 5” CP, well, that’s for new players to the game of pool. Enjoyment and
a sense of satisfaction from pocketing balls is more motivating to a new player vs. a more seasoned player.
4 1/4 inch? 4 inch? Are you a pro?
 
The first table I played on as a teenager was an 8’ with huge pockets and shallow shelves. I couldn’t say the precise pocket dimensions but the had to be at least 5” in the corners. Needless to say transitioning to a 9’ back then was a rude awakening.

Fast forward to getting my first 9’ table and wanted something that would provide some challenge. Quickly discovered that pro cut 4.5” corners tightened up my game, but I imagine anything tighter would be brutal. At that point I may as well play Chinese 8B, Snooker or Russian Pyramid.

Half of me thinks going tighter was a good idea for personal improvement, but the other half says looser would be more fun.
 
I have been strictly playing with 4.25” corner pockets since COVID started.
My best friend converted his garage into a man cave. His Olhausen has 4 1/4”.

The Rasson Table at The Rack has 4 1/4” pockets and I only practice on that table.
Sierra Billiards recently opened has four 9’ tables with 4 1/4” CP & the rest are 4 1/2”.

4 1/4” really isn’t that difficult once you get adjusted. So yes, I’d like to practice with 4”
CP. It would make 4.5” pockets easier & I like raising the height of the bar to test myself.

Even practice drills I perform are a lot harder than what most players use. There isn’t any
shot I can’t pocket when I’m in stroke. The question nowadays is how long I can maintain it.

I am not saying that smaller pockets are for every player or that you will get better. Some folks
aren’t built to put in the mental time & physical effort required to conquer playing with tight pockets.

However, I know this. The best players in my town enjoy playing on tables with fast rails and cloth,
& smaller pockets. 4.5” CP is the largest I ever want to play with. Anything larger isn’t as enjoyable.
 
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You are absouloutly correct. They will also say they prefer snooker balls with 4 inch pockets on a 12 foot table.
I speak only for myself and I do not like snooker pockets. I am awed by European players that
stoke the CB, and in turn the OBs, with great precision despite those devilishly sculpted pockets.

I have played snooker but if I’m going to be on a 10’ table, if it’s not pool, then let it be 3 cushion.
Everyone should play for their own enjoyment & mine happens to be playing on challenging tables.

12’ tables are like a parking lot and I hate using a bridge. On 9’ tables, I’ll shoot opposite handed
before I’ll use a bridge. It’s an unnatural stroke for me & I feel like I’m pushing the cue & that sucks.
 
I have greater conflict between loose pockets and quality of play than with tight pockets. To me it's still the jaws. You can have an all access aperture at 3" if you eliminate the jaws. I <think> people who consider procuts the shit, have no idea the the slop factor in their abilities. Quick for instance, the Euros with no playing experience in the US, come visit and trounce everybody. I always bring this up but to me that's the loose thread in pool...
 
Here’s my review of Sierra Billiards…….on a scale of 0-10, I give it a 9.
The tables are cleaned everyday, including the rails, & also pool balls.

The facility is immaculately clean; the staff is really customer friendly.
It now has its beer license so suds are flowing & hard alcohol is next.

The TV screens abound everywhere so sports is on continuously and
just let them know what you’d like to watch on a screen near your table.

The tables are spectacular, if you like Diamond tables. Every table has
4.5” and 5” pockets except 4 of the 8 nine ft tables (4 1/4” & 4 3/4”).
The seven 7’ tables are on the E. side of the hall & 9’ tables on W. side.

All the tables have Diamond lights positioned perfectly. The illumination
is the best I’ve enjoyed playing pool. The tables have subway pockets.

So if you are looking for pool tables with larger pockets, you’re not going
to find any at Sierra Billiards. But you will find exceptionally good tables.
 
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