CB Action

dougster26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm always amazed, when watching Efren, how much spin or action he gets on the CB. He seems to hit the CB real easy or softly and when the CB hits a rail it really takes off.

Does anyone know what he does to accomplish this? Is he using BHE or swiping at the CB?
 

mristea

Pool maniac
Silver Member
He accelerates through the cue ball. He shoots slowly but accelerates exactly in the right moment and he gets the cue through the cue ball perfectly, obtaining a lot of action from the cue ball.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
He accelerates through the cue ball. He shoots slowly but accelerates exactly in the right moment and he gets the cue through the cue ball perfectly, obtaining a lot of action from the cue ball.
I believe this is false.

The key to hitting without effort is to strike the cue ball when the cue stick is at peak speed. That means that at the instant of the hit, the acceleration is zero.

But the real reason Efren gets such a lively cue ball is that he is willing to hit farther from center than 99% of all players are willing to.
 

dougster26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I believe this is false.

The key to hitting without effort is to strike the cue ball when the cue stick is at peak speed. That means that at the instant of the hit, the acceleration is zero.

But the real reason Efren gets such a lively cue ball is that he is willing to hit farther from center than 99% of all players are willing to.

Thanks for the reply Bob. I cannot get the action when experimenting unless I use BHE. I know stroke and a loose grip has a lot to do with it. Do you use BHE or do you parallel over? Whatever he is doing, it sure looks effortless.

Note: I was in Santa Clara a couple of years ago when my son got married. Had a little free time and wound up at Santa Clara Billiards. Nice room.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks for the reply Bob. I cannot get the action when experimenting unless I use BHE. I know stroke and a loose grip has a lot to do with it. Do you use BHE or do you parallel over? Whatever he is doing, it sure looks effortless. ...
I put the stick where it needs to be for squirt, swerve and throw for a particular shot, and then I come straight back and straight through (or try to). That's all by feel.

Conventional BHE requires you to come straight back and straight through on the power stroke. Is that what you do?
 

dougster26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I put the stick where it needs to be for squirt, swerve and throw for a particular shot, and then I come straight back and straight through (or try to). That's all by feel.

Conventional BHE requires you to come straight back and straight through on the power stroke. Is that what you do?

That's a good question. Nobody ever told me how. I bring my back hand in towards my body without moving my front hand bridge. Then I come through straight, but I would say my cue is at an angle in doing this. Is this right?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I believe this is false.

The key to hitting without effort is to strike the cue ball when the cue stick is at peak speed. That means that at the instant of the hit, the acceleration is zero.
I'd add that hitting the cue ball where you want to is also a big part of it.

But the real reason Efren gets such a lively cue ball is that he is willing to hit farther from center than 99% of all players are willing to.
A good example of the benefit of hitting where you want to. Normal humans like me try to hit that far from center but our subconscious knows our strokes aren't reliable enough to do that consistently and steer our strokes back to a safer place, saving us the embarrassment of miscuing by reducing the CB action we're capable of.

Damned stroke police! I mean thank you stroke savior!

pj
chgo
 

scottjen26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Bob has it exactly right I believe (no surprise). People always ask me how I get so much spin on the ball, and I stress that I'm not doing anything "special". I've always had an affinity for spinning balls (sic) - bowling, tennis, golf, etc. - and it helps to understand the action required.

But it comes down to pure physics in all sports - speed at impact, angle of impact, position struck on the ball, etc. Nothing magic with special strokes etc., although subconsciously feeling like you are executing a certain type of stroke may enable you to more consistently achieve a certain speed or angle.

Try shooting more toward the edge of the ball and softer than you think, that will allow the english a chance to "bite" off the rail. Hitting hard tends to cause the linear momentum to override the effect of the spin - hope I'm saying that right or the physics police will get me. :)

Scott
 
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Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
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That's a good question. Nobody ever told me how. I bring my back hand in towards my body without moving my front hand bridge. Then I come through straight, but I would say my cue is at an angle in doing this. Is this right?
Well, your cue is probably not parallel to a line drawn through the centers of the cue ball and the simple ghost ball. I assume that's what you mean by "at an angle." This is true for most side spin shots hit firmly.

If you play a shot softly with side spin and draw then for a particular set of speeds and distances and elevations, your stick will need to be parallel to the cue-ghost line.

It all depends.
 

Donny Lutz

Ferrule Cat
Silver Member
knowledge

I'm always amazed, when watching Efren, how much spin or action he gets on the CB. He seems to hit the CB real easy or softly and when the CB hits a rail it really takes off.

Does anyone know what he does to accomplish this? Is he using BHE or swiping at the CB?

Efren understands how striking the cue ball at each of the points you can see on the CB from the shooting position, coupled with varying amounts of force applied to the CB, make the CB react when moving on the table surface, when striking an object ball, and when striking a rail.

Very simply put, the average player is woefully lacking in this knowledge, being limited by a partial understanding of draw, follow and a little sidespin.

What looks like "magic" is just knowledge applied with great skill.
 

dougster26

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Efren understands how striking the cue ball at each of the points you can see on the CB from the shooting position, coupled with varying amounts of force applied to the CB, make the CB react when moving on the table surface, when striking an object ball, and when striking a rail.

Very simply put, the average player is woefully lacking in this knowledge, being limited by a partial understanding of draw, follow and a little sidespin.

What looks like "magic" is just knowledge applied with great skill.

This pretty much sums it up. There is no magic involved, just knowledge, which I lack, and proper execution.

I want to thank everyone for their contributions. Gives me a better understanding of what Efrem is doing. He sure is exciting to watch and I continue to marvel at the action he is able to achieve.
 

Pidge

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Cueing through the cue ball rather than across I at a glancing blow generates more spin I've found. Mostly because where I contact the white is far more accurate.

It comes down to where you hit it and how hard you hit it. Hit it more accurately and you don't have to hit it as hard.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Cueing through the cue ball rather than across I at a glancing blow generates more spin I've found. Mostly because where I contact the white is far more accurate.

It comes down to where you hit it and how hard you hit it. Hit [the CB] more accurately and you don't have to hit it as hard.
A truth that many never learn...

pj
chgo
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Cueing through the cue ball rather than across I at a glancing blow generates more spin I've found. Mostly because where I contact the white is far more accurate.

It comes down to where you hit it and how hard you hit it. Hit it more accurately and you don't have to hit it as hard.

what he said ( and patrick agreed) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
I believe this is false.

The key to hitting without effort is to strike the cue ball when the cue stick is at peak speed. That means that at the instant of the hit, the acceleration is zero.

But the real reason Efren gets such a lively cue ball is that he is willing to hit farther from center than 99% of all players are willing to.

I believe this is false (or at least moot).

Mristea's description is perfectly adequate.
 

Sloppy Pockets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The key to hitting without effort is to strike the cue ball when the cue stick is at peak speed. That means that at the instant of the hit, the acceleration is zero.

Why does the acceleration have to be zero at the instant of the hit? A truck running into you at 60 MPH can be accelerating, decelerating, or moving at a constant velocity at impact. All three will have the same effect on you, but that doesn't change what the truck was doing a millisecond beforehand, does it? I'm confused.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
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Why does the acceleration have to be zero at the instant of the hit? A truck running into you at 60 MPH can be accelerating, decelerating, or moving at a constant velocity at impact. All three will have the same effect on you, but that doesn't change what the truck was doing a millisecond beforehand, does it? I'm confused.
The key to what I said was doing it without apparent effort or in as efficient a way as possible.

In fact the amount of acceleration at the instant of contact does not change the shot perceptibly as you pointed out. The softness of your hand enters into the details of that conclusion.

If you are still accelerating at the instant of contact, you will continue to accelerate because your muscles cannot stop working instantaneously at impact. That's wasted effort. In your truck analogy, which uses less gas: the truck accelerates to 60 and coasts into you or the engine is still at max torque when it hits you?

On the other hand, it is very important not to slow down the stick prior to contact. Lots of players do that and end up with a lot of wasted effort. Sometimes the advice "accelerate through the ball" is given. That may get the student to avoid premature deceleration, but technically it's incorrect. I think a better way to encourage proper mechanics is to recommend a complete follow through and only forward motion in the final stroke or maybe "let the stick do the work."
 

Sloppy Pockets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The key to what I said was doing it without apparent effort or in as efficient a way as possible.

In fact the amount of acceleration at the instant of contact does not change the shot perceptibly as you pointed out. The softness of your hand enters into the details of that conclusion.

If you are still accelerating at the instant of contact, you will continue to accelerate because your muscles cannot stop working instantaneously at impact. That's wasted effort. In your truck analogy, which uses less gas: the truck accelerates to 60 and coasts into you or the engine is still at max torque when it hits you?

On the other hand, it is very important not to slow down the stick prior to contact. Lots of players do that and end up with a lot of wasted effort. Sometimes the advice "accelerate through the ball" is given. That may get the student to avoid premature deceleration, but technically it's incorrect. I think a better way to encourage proper mechanics is to recommend a complete follow through and only forward motion in the final stroke or maybe "let the stick do the work."

There is only one good reason I can think of to accelerate into contact, and that is to prevent deceleration. I'm not worried about the wasted effort from either unnecessary acceleration or premature deceleration, I have plenty of gas in my stroke. What does concern me is that, aside from striking the CB, the only way to decelerate the cue is to apply an external force to it from the muscles. This can do no possible good I can think of, and can only increase the chance of throwing the cue off line.

With that in mind, I strive to improve my stroke timing so that the cue is always accelerating at the end of the stroke, even if it is only slightly. To do this, I employ my wrist and then my fingers at the very end of the stroke. Doing this adds a certain "crispness" to even a soft hit, and makes it easier for me to achieve the desired effect on the CB and to control its travel after contact with the OB (especially when using soft stun and draw strokes). Yes, it is still just the cue doing the work, but by employing the wrist and fingers at just the right time, I am able to use a short, compact, and efficient stroke with little apparent effort needed to get the job done - with less cue travel for the stick to move off my intended line, and more fine motor control of CB speed.

Like him or not, CJ Wiley refers (ad nauseam) to this finish as a "hammer stroke". Well, it doesn't feel like hammering a nail to me, but it certainly is a way to incorporate a quick burst of effortless acceleration at a point in the stroke where it is least likely to move the cue off line. I played this way for years until I became enamored with the idea of developing a huge stroke. I found that a big stroke takes a lot more work to develop and maintain. For bangers like myself, an efficient compact stoke is just much easier to use in actual play.

Just my 2¢ on the subject. YSMV.
 
Deceleration is the greatest risk to the shot there is. Quit confusing the issue.

I don't know how 'wasted energy' relates to a pool shot, but i sure know what it means around here. :rolleyes:

To the OP:

1. Accelerate through the ball
2. Work on timing
3. Make the CB light.

Once you can do those, your CB will fly.
 

Sloppy Pockets

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
In fact the amount of acceleration at the instant of contact does not change the shot perceptibly as you pointed out. The softness of your hand enters into the details of that conclusion.

Just noticed this part. I thought that one was put to rest. :wink:

How much contribution from the hand/arm to you think it's possible to add in an extreme case of a rock hard grip? I'd think not enough to make a difference. In my truck analogy it might be considerable if the masses were close to they same and the truck was under full power. Hardly an elastic collision going on in a vehicular accident. But in a cue-CB impact I would think the impulse would be mostly over by the time the CB could possible "feel" the structures of the hand.
 
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