CB Path vs Stroke

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
i am not an instructor but your question may be putting the cart in front of the horse.
what i mean is in order for the cue tip to hit the cue ball where it needs to be struck needs a quality stroke
not the other way around
jmho
icbw
2 more cents worth from me
i think the different strokes promoted by carom players are a way to express the timing and tempo of the stroke in question for the shot in question
jmho
icbw

I don't know the answer either. The elevated cue (6"?) and long stroke is what was suggested, and yes I did experiment when I got home and so far I'll say I was way more successful with following the instruction. I didn't spend a ton of time. Half dozen shots with a level stroke all failed. Then elevated and immediately saw the CB path drastically improve. BTW the shot doesn't require a much English at all, the 1st and 2nd rail give you all you need. Not much curve happens before the 1st rail.

Just speculating that suggesting a long stroke may generally speaking, may improve the quality of the stroke. Now I'm back to the argument I originally brought up. What does stroke quality have to do with anything, as long as the cue tip strikes the CB where it needs to be struck?
I think maybe the biggest factor would be in getting to the desired force and point at impact while maintaining a straight line and desired cue angle on the way there. Players seem to feel instinctively (for lack of a better word) what it takes to keep their arm swinging without wavering, while ending with the proper amount of force for any given shot. It's tricky. I think it's a combination of physical anatomy and the personality of the player.

With some shots, players prefer to accelerate right up to impact, while others, as with shots like kill shots, prefer to start to decelerate before impact. So why not keep the speed constant? Maybe you could if you were a Filipino playing with a continuous loop stroke, but most players are starting their forward motion from zero. There will always be acceleration.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I think maybe the biggest factor would be in getting to the desired force and point at impact while maintaining a straight line and desired cue angle on the way there.
Yes, there's more than one successful way to stroke a shot, but only one combination of spot/angle/speed at the CB that pockets it and gets desired shape.

pj
chgo
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Yes, there's more than one successful way to stroke a shot, but only one combination of spot/angle/speed at the CB that pockets it and gets desired shape.

pj
chgo
I think your comment needs some clarification. We know there is more than one way to pocket a ball and achieve the exact same position result by adjusting any or all of the three. Right? That can't be what you're saying, right?
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
I think your comment needs some clarification. We know there is more than one way to pocket a ball and achieve the exact same position result by adjusting any or all of the three. Right? That can't be what you're saying, right?
I meant to say there's only one "hit" (angle/spot/speed) that produces the same CB direction, spin and speed. Yes, other hits might result in the same CB/OB end positions by alternate routes.

Thanks for helping to clarify, Fran.

pj
chgo
 
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3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Refresh me, who is Dick jaspers?
Thank you
randyg
5X World Champion and I believe currently Ranked #1 by the UMB, who governs all Carom games. I think.
For sure 3 Cushion for decades.
 
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Island Drive

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think maybe the biggest factor would be in getting to the desired force and point at impact while maintaining a straight line and desired cue angle on the way there. Players seem to feel instinctively (for lack of a better word) what it takes to keep their arm swinging without wavering, while ending with the proper amount of force for any given shot. It's tricky. I think it's a combination of physical anatomy and the personality of the player.

With some shots, players prefer to accelerate right up to impact, while others, as with shots like kill shots, prefer to start to decelerate before impact. So why not keep the speed constant? Maybe you could if you were a Filipino playing with a continuous loop stroke, but most players are starting their forward motion from zero. There will always be acceleration.
Yep.............. Watch any top pro, very, very few are perfectly straight all the time (Earl was in 1979), but when hittin' through the cue ball, Straight line is key.... it removes the dreaded ''pivot'', and cue ball ''release''.

In ones early years of play many develop and do it (pivot), often making the shot Easier, even tho it's WRONG and your results are perfect.

When top pros miss a SIMPLE shot, it's often pivot related or ''cue ball release, and in/turn, cue ball direction change before contact happens'', causing the under or overcut.
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
I've been reading this forum for some time and most Instructors agree that after the CB is contacted, It's all over. No argument.
What seems to me the instructors are also saying is ... No matter HOW the CUE is delivered, the point of contact is the Only Thing That Matters.

Why is it that when you talk to Masters of a game, they talk about different stroke techniques. Short, Long, Choke.....

I'm fortunate enough to be listening to Dick Jaspers in person teach all day today and tomorrow.
The different strokes/stroke techniques in part come from the different feel/feedback from varied angles/points of cb contact. For example, stroking a draw with an emphasis on a loose grip and a flowing followthrough helps in gaining good contact below center.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...stroking a draw with an emphasis on a loose grip and a flowing followthrough helps in gaining good contact below center.
"Good contact", below center or elsewhere, is purely a function of hitting the CB accurately - so I assume that's what you mean is improved with "a loose grip and a flowing followthrough"...?

pj
chgo
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
"Good contact", below center or elsewhere, is purely a function of hitting the CB accurately - so I assume that's what you mean is improved with "a loose grip and a flowing followthrough"...?

pj
chgo
Yes. Observe APA 5s and 6s and you see them struggle with draw shots--distance drawn off the ob and so on.
 

greyghost

Coast to Coast
Silver Member
Yes. Observe APA 5s and 6s and you see them struggle with draw shots--distance drawn off the ob and so on.
Merely a result of their habitual deceleration and bunt stroking or that rubbery jab like delivery then snatching it in reverse pretty much instantly after impact.

All that leads to inaccurate tip placement on the cb. Even when this does make tip contact as desired the resulting stroke is more of a pushing of the cue ball, often giving it meager stun if not some slight martial forward roll prior to ob contact.

Novices are terrified to have to stop, much less draw the cb when shooting a longer shot with the ob sitting in the pocket jaws or close to the opening…..scared to follow and scratch behind it and they often will accomplish just that….their preference would be cheating the pocket if possible and shooting the cb slower to die off the rail after ob contact.

The pendulum or close enough to pendulum stroke is easier to complete and finish consistently, wether it’s a big flowing stroke or a short drawback to use a short finish stroking technique.

The learning players have dozens of end of shot stroking arm and body positions and it really hurts them to become consistent since they are constantly doing everything differently shot to shot to shot…..

Brutal way to live lol 😂
 

BilliardsAbout

BondFanEvents.com
Silver Member
Merely a result of their habitual deceleration and bunt stroking or that rubbery jab like delivery then snatching it in reverse pretty much instantly after impact.

All that leads to inaccurate tip placement on the cb. Even when this does make tip contact as desired the resulting stroke is more of a pushing of the cue ball, often giving it meager stun if not some slight martial forward roll prior to ob contact.

Novices are terrified to have to stop, much less draw the cb when shooting a longer shot with the ob sitting in the pocket jaws or close to the opening…..scared to follow and scratch behind it and they often will accomplish just that….their preference would be cheating the pocket if possible and shooting the cb slower to die off the rail after ob contact.

The pendulum or close enough to pendulum stroke is easier to complete and finish consistently, wether it’s a big flowing stroke or a short drawback to use a short finish stroking technique.

The learning players have dozens of end of shot stroking arm and body positions and it really hurts them to become consistent since they are constantly doing everything differently shot to shot to shot…..

Brutal way to live lol 😂
Unfortunately even those doing as you describe struggle with draw. There are solutions, though.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Merely a result of their habitual deceleration and bunt stroking or that rubbery jab like delivery then snatching it in reverse pretty much instantly after impact.

All that leads to inaccurate tip placement on the cb. Even when this does make tip contact as desired the resulting stroke is more of a pushing of the cue ball, often giving it meager stun if not some slight martial forward roll prior to ob contact.

Novices are terrified to have to stop, much less draw the cb when shooting a longer shot with the ob sitting in the pocket jaws or close to the opening…..scared to follow and scratch behind it and they often will accomplish just that….their preference would be cheating the pocket if possible and shooting the cb slower to die off the rail after ob contact.

The pendulum or close enough to pendulum stroke is easier to complete and finish consistently, wether it’s a big flowing stroke or a short drawback to use a short finish stroking technique.

The learning players have dozens of end of shot stroking arm and body positions and it really hurts them to become consistent since they are constantly doing everything differently shot to shot to shot…..

Brutal way to live lol 😂
If you address the mechanics without getting to the psychological source of the problem, you will fail in trying to help the player.

With newer players who struggle with draw shots and back spin in general, you have to address the fear of scraping the cloth in the follow through. They need to be reassured that this is an accepted part of the technique, and they need to practice it. This is where many instructors fall short. The instructor needs to give them exercises to make them comfortable with scraping the cloth. Then watch how they stop hesitating and everything starts to fall into place.

I had similar issues when I first started learning to play golf when I was 14. I didn't know that it was okay to take a divot, so I was making adjustments mid-swing to avoid it. Whoever would have thought that it was okay to take a big chunk of grass out of a beautiful carpet of grass, AND on someone else's property, and send it flying into the air?
 
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