ccn7's - When do you make your move...

[Donovan]

In another forum, our ccn7, posted the question about when to make you move. Meaning when do you go for the run out in 8-ball and he posed the question, do you play the table or the player.

I took such a long time to write up my thoughts, that I thought I would share it here too. I would love to know what you guys do or think on this subject as well.

Here was my response:

1. I check to see if either solids or stripes can be ran out easily. If yes do it.
2. If there is 1 or 2 problem ares in the run out, I check to see if there is easy transition shots to break the tough things up and only if it can be done early in the run. If I feel I have about an 80% chance of doing that, then I go for it. The reason for doing this early in the run is so that I still have many options and shots left in case things don't go as planned.
3. If I find I can not run out easily I either make 1 or 2 balls to get in a position to either get one of my balls to block a hole that my opponent is really going to really need to get out, or play position for a safety and get that "BALL IN HAND."
4. If I did my job on step 3, I now start this process all over again and keep going.


Side note....I played in a tourney the other night and there was a guy who seemed to hardly miss, but he was also taking only one shot every 3 minutes. It was such a slow pace, that everyone who was playing him got impatient and tried to run out regardless of the layout. He was frustrating them and taking them out of their game. I saw him have to take one kick shot in a match and he missed it by miles. I looked at my buddy and said I own that guy. He laughed at me and said, "Oh really, how?" I told him you just make sure he is giving you ball in hand often and he will get so frustrated, he will not make a ball. After missing a ball after the break he never made a ball again in our match. He was kicking at everything. When he shook my hand after the match he said, "nice moves." The safeties I played on him were so subtle and small cue ball movements, he was feeling the pressure even when they were not perfect. He was obviously frustrated right after the first safety I made. He bent down looked at the kick and then looked at me with complete dismay. I moved the cue ball like 3 inches total on that shot. Mentally, that guy gave up before he even tried to hit one of his balls and never recovered.

SO here is the deal from my point of view: First you play the table, but don't ever think for one moment you are not playing the person. EVERYONE has weaknesses. If you see it or sense the weakness...exploit it. Some people hate taking long shots, straight-in shots, some jack way up when shooting off the rail, whatever it is look for it and use it as you would a safety.


EVERYONE...yes, even my boy Efren...has weaknesses. Effie just hides them better than most. Don't ask...hell if I know. LMAO!

Now, one last thing. I used to be weak in the long straight-in shots. SO I went and got the Mighty-X video from Bert Kinister and worked on it until I was blue in the face. Now that is my best shot and oddly enough my favorite shot. SO if you know something you don't like about your game, whether it be the same kind of shot you are missing often, can't shoot off the rail, can't make good contact on your kicks, whatever...Go learn to make that one of your best parts of your game. You will never regret it!

HOLY $#!? Sorry this was so long! I type too much!

 

[chilli66]

Some great points & good advice. Rep for you as soon as it'll let me!!

 

[IA8baller]

I'm very much in agreement with your #1 thru #4 response to him and while I definitely try to play the table vs. the opponent first and foremost, if you see a weakness that can be exploited to your advantage, then by all means do it!

Trevor

 

[dukeboy1977]

when?

You want to know "when I make my move"?? Well, it really depends on who I'm playing. There are some guys in this city that if given a shot, you HAVE TO try to run out first chance you get or you'll lose...Then there are guys here that you need to simply out-think them. Whether its playing safe early on to get ball-in-hand, or leaving them THEIR weaknesses and watching as they blow their opportunity. I try to watch everyone I can and come up with MY version of what their strong and weak points are, so I know how to play em'. Now, knowing all the real pool players in my city, I have a GREAT idea as to who can or can't do certain things to win...But this can back-fire as well cause most of the players here know more about my game than I care to have them know, but thats part of this game I guess. Now, I only will play 8-ball during leagues so this thread isn't really for me, but if you meant all games, then I try to run out as soon as I feel I have a good chance of doing so. I'm a little impatient so playing a long game is a little irritating but I'll play this way if money is on the line...But if we DO play this way, you'd better be prepared to play the safety game with me cause I feel I do it pretty well. If you play me safe and leave me ANY way to kick at the object ball, you can bet that I'm gonna hit it somehow cause I have a reputation around here as "kicking like a mule"! lol When I was learning to play this game, my shape was sooo bad I HAD TO kick most of the time, so I learned kicking pretty quickly...And that part of my game just irritates some of the local players! lol Anyways, to sum all this up, I try to run out as soon as I feel comfortable doing so depending on who I'm playing. If I don't know you, you'd better hope you can kick well also cause' you're bound to get locked-up pretty quickly by me! I hope this answer is what you're fishing for, if not, PM me and I'll try to answer it the way you'd like.

 

[NittiFan]

1. I check to see if either solids or stripes can be ran out easily. If yes do it.
2. If there is 1 or 2 problem ares in the run out, I check to see if there is easy transition shots to break the tough things up and only if it can be done early in the run. If I feel I have about an 80% chance of doing that, then I go for it. The reason for doing this early in the run is so that I still have many options and shots left in case things don't go as planned.
3. If I find I can not run out easily I either make 1 or 2 balls to get in a position to either get one of my balls to block a hole that my opponent is really going to really need to get out, or play position for a safety and get that "BALL IN HAND."
4. If I did my job on step 3, I now start this process all over again and keep going.

I have won many a game of 8-ball just getting my group of balls in front of the pockets. I am also looking to pocket one of my group and tie up one or two of the other group. I love it when my opponent says, "Man, always tieing up my balls!"
I've played many safeties to bide my time until my opponent breaks open a cluster that I have no way of getting to, or put one of my group in position to break it open on my next turn. I have also pocketed my opponents ball when he puts it in a place to break out a "cup", if keeping those balls together will save my life that game.
I used to look for the easiest "first" shot to try to determine if that was the group I wanted, but, I find that sometimes the hardiest shot is the key to getting out. I have also "swindled my opponents into taking a group, i.e. Put them in a spot where all they can shoot is the group I want them to take.
I have a Kinister tape that deals with which group to take and why, but, what he teaches is very time consuming. He says look at each group and plan all your shots for each gruop to see which is the better choice. I do not have the patience for this much planning. I can see 3 or 4 balls ahead, but, usually not more than that. Then I sometimes have to change my plan for one reason or another.

Mike

 

[Flex]

I
Now, one last thing. I used to be weak in the long straight-in shots. SO I went and got the Mighty-X video from Bert Kinister and worked on it until I was blue in the face. Now that is my best shot and oddly enough my favorite shot. SO if you know something you don't like about your game, whether it be the same kind of shot you are missing often, can't shoot off the rail, can't make good contact on your kicks, whatever...Go learn to make that one of your best parts of your game. You will never regret it!

Great post, Donovan my friend. The system won't let me give you rep right now, or it'd be headed your way!

Kinister's video is good, but for those who may not possess it, an alternative is to get Joe Tucker's 3rd Eye Stroke trainer, to cure the fear of straight in shots. It works wonders... Just have to practice it until you know how to pot those suckers flawlessly.

Flex

 

[ShootingArts]

Great post!

In another forum, our ccn7, posted the question about when to make you move. Meaning when do you go for the run out in 8-ball and he posed the question, do you play the table or the player.

Donovan,

Excellent post. We play the table but we also play the other player if we know anything at all about them. For example, if the other player is weak at breaking out problem areas then we can take our time working on our own problem areas and massage the table to suit us before we attack. On the other hand, if the other player is very good at break outs unless we have very strong safeties available we may have to go with some considerably higher risk runs rather than let them back at the table.

Playing a stranger I generally assume that they can take care of one problem area but if they have two problem areas without obvious leads into them then I will get another turn at the table. Often a sneaky safe is to let them have a ball while making shape for a break out or their next ball almost impossible. Of course I assume that nine ball players favor draw over follow about 75-90% of the time. A safe assumption most of the time. Occasionally . . .

Hu

 

[Billy_Bob]

I have won many a game of 8-ball just getting my group of balls in front of the pockets. I am also looking to pocket one of my group and tie up one or two of the other group. I love it when my opponent says, "Man, always tieing up my balls!"
I've played many safeties to bide my time until my opponent breaks open a cluster that I have no way of getting to, or put one of my group in position to break it open on my next turn. I have also pocketed my opponents ball when he puts it in a place to break out a "cup", if keeping those balls together will save my life that game.
I used to look for the easiest "first" shot to try to determine if that was the group I wanted, but, I find that sometimes the hardiest shot is the key to getting out. I have also "swindled my opponents into taking a group, i.e. Put them in a spot where all they can shoot is the group I want them to take...

You are the type of player I have lost against for YEARS!

But I have been watching you guys and learning...

It is simple. Yes block the pockets. Yes sometimes wait and let your opponent break out that cluster (if you can't). And play safeties until they do break it out.

And a really good one is to use your ball to pocket your opponents ball. Many times my opponent's ball is blocking my pocket. I can shoot my ball to pocket my opponent's ball, then my ball is then blocking that pocket! (The table has turned!)

And another good one is if the table is open and I don't have a shot at the group I want, then I also try to leave the cue ball where the only shot my opponent has is the opposite group.

Then intentionally shooting one of my balls so it blocks a pocket. Sometimes when I'm having a bit of fun, I can block say 5 pockets. Then maybe shoot a safety. My opponent just stares at the table and says "You're blocking all the pockets! I don't have ANY shot! You @$$&^%$!"

I say "I'm sorry..." He says "I'll bet you're sorry!"


So far as running out, I was told if you can run out, then go for it. And I will do this. But if I have a ball blocking my opponent's ball(s) and I have the option, I will shoot that in last or next to last. I guess you could call this a "safe runout". If I mess up somewhere, then I still have that blocking ball there and will probably have another shot at the table.

 

[Donovan]

These are great...anyone else....anyone...

 

[Flex]

Of course I assume that nine ball players favor draw over follow about 75-90% of the time. A safe assumption most of the time. Occasionally . . .

Hu

While draw shots work well, as do center ball shots, as do extreme high english shots, and so on, to assume that 9 ballers will favor draw over follow might be a tad bit dangerous. Most of the good 9 ballers I know shoot the shot they think is the best one, whether it be follow or draw or with inside or outside or stun or drag draw or spin or whatever. On a bar box with a weighted cue ball I imagine most good players will do whatever necessary to play well, but table length draw shots on slow, dirty, napped and pilled cloth aren't likely to come up that often...

Nice post!

Flex