Centerball...haters gonna hate

[KRJ]

If you doubt, take a good look at some great players. Earl, Efren, Cowboy Jimmy Moore, Dallas West, Mike Sigel, to name a few. They favored the lower to extreme lower portion of the cueball, even if draw is not involved in the shot.

You realize they are still hitting center when they go low, when not trying to draw. Most good players use low for stop shots so they can slow down the cue ball for shape, or just stopping on straight in. But it's still center, none the less.

I'm perplexed that folks don't know you only use English when you need to, it seems pretty simple concept. Since it complicates the shot, and most shots when pro's miss, was because of the use of English.

Of course, they miss a LOT less than us, but the concept is the same. Though, I still think Earl spins everything, but he's Earl, and can do whatever he likes

 

[gregcantrall]

Efren says

"No Spin"
According to CJ Wiley:
His accent is intriguing and I've had several brief conversations with Efren and although he is a "man of few words," when he does say something he's like "EF HUTTON" (if you remember the commercials), people certainly listen.

I ask him "what do you do that makes you better than the American players?".....he looked at me with a twinkle in his eye and replied "No Spin".

 

[midnightpulp]

Being too bored of playing centre ball to master it is my biggest regret in pool.

Spin is easy, centre ball is not.

Center ball is easy. It's why it's recommended that beginning players build their game around using the vertical axis first and then gradually work in the use of English, with all its swerve, deflection, speed control and throw issues that decrease consistency, accuracy, and can hamper a beginner's development and confidence.

If you think center ball is hard, you either have stroke issues, sighting issues, alignment issues, or a combination of all three.

When I was younger, I hated hitting shots using the vertical axis, and spun everything in with outside because it can give you a larger pocket and more control on some shots. When I would need to hit a vertical axis shot, my muscle memory was so programmed to hit everything with outside, I found aligning to my aimpoint via a vertical axis hit very, very difficult. Every cut shot looked too thin and I would also drift unconsciously to the outside.

Then I made a conscious effort to rebuild from the ground up. Once you reprogram yourself and get comfortable with the aimpoints and alignment, it gets much easier and you'll find yourself being more consistent than ever. Adding English from this foundation is effortless rather than the other way around.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Also worth mentioning is that a player's use of spin can be heavily determined by where they live and what the climate is like there.

I see why Jaden advocates the use of spin. He's from my neck of the woods (Inland Empire) and the stuffy, hot humid conditions of this place pretty much demand the use of spin on a lot of shots unless you're playing on brand spanking new cloth with perfectly clean balls. Even air conditioners don't temper the humidity.

Center Axis shots tend to really stick in humid conditions, demanding more power, meaning less accuracy and control.

And I can see why the guys from colder states (Patrick, Neil, etc) advocate center ball first.

Pulp,

That's a bit of an interesting observation as I am from Humid New Orleans, but with the faster Simonis, speed or power is not that much of an issue & Pros & gamblers travel the country to all different climates.

That said, I'm fairly sure that one that can & does spin the ball might make an adjustment but one that can not or does not regularly use spin would seem to have a more difficult time making an adjustment.

Just more food for thought.

 

[FranCrimi]

You realize they are still hitting center when they go low, when not trying to draw. Most good players use low for stop shots so they can slow down the cue ball for shape, or just stopping on straight in. But it's still center, none the less.

I'm perplexed that folks don't know you only use English when you need to, it seems pretty simple concept. Since it complicates the shot, and most shots when pro's miss, was because of the use of English.

Of course, they miss a LOT less than us, but the concept is the same. Though, I still think Earl spins everything, but he's Earl, and can do whatever he likes

In theory, one would think it's true about using English only when you need to, but it doesn't work that way in real life. Spinners will spin balls. That's the reality of it. Their reality is the opposite ----- only use center ball when they absolutely have to.

You all may think it's ridiculous or that it doesn't make sense, but that's their style, and so many of them are absolutely brilliant at it.

Most of the time a pro will miss a shot in competition because he's not committed to it, not because he's trying to use spin.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Being too bored of playing centre ball to master it is my biggest regret in pool.

Spin is easy, centre ball is not.

That's interesting, Ron.

When you say center is not easy, do you mean hitting center axis or playing the game successfully while hitting the center axis?

 

[midnightpulp]

Pulp,

That's a bit of an interesting observation as I am from Humid New Orleans, but with the faster Simonis, speed or power is not that much of an issue & Pros & gamblers travel the country to all different climates.

That said, I'm fairly sure that one that can & does spin the ball might make an adjustment but one that can not or does not regularly use spin would seem to have a more difficult time making an adjustment.

Just more food for thought.

I'm once again getting back into the game and haven't yet had the opportunity to play on the latest and greatest Simonis cloth and rubber, but back when I played more (in the 90s, early 00s), balls would just die if not hit with running English. And I played on nice Gold Crowns with Simonis down here in Francisco Galindo's pool room.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

midnightpulp:
Center Axis shots tend to really stick in humid conditions, demanding more power, meaning less accuracy and control.

Center axis shots demand more power in any conditions, so that's a tradeoff regardless.

I can see why the guys from colder states (Patrick, Neil, etc) advocate center ball first.

The addition of squirt/swerve makes aiming less reliable for anybody, in any conditions. Needing to hit harder with center axis makes stroking less reliable for anybody, in any conditions. Both of these are less true for better players, but still true.

The principle is simply that these things should be recognized and weighed in the decision to hit the shot one way vs. another - hitting one way or the other out of habit rather than making a choice each time is less effective in the long run (and can actually change the way you see shots).

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

Actually it is that simple. You are just choosing to make it difficult.

Below is a very common shot that occurs in rotation games. You can easily get shape on the 9 ball using a center ball hit. All you have to do is pocket the 8 ball, and "the CB does all the work."

What if the 9 wasn't the last ball, and you needed to maintain an angle to get shape on the 10 ball (not pictured)? Or what if you are worried about scratching? Well that's simple too. Just hit higher or lower on the cue ball, and you can adjust it's path.

Simple.

Jon,

With all due respect, I think one could come up with many 'simple' scenarios.

Jaden & Fran have given good logical reasoning for using english on more than just the 'as needed' basis.

I agree with them.

It's up to each individual to make their own determination as to what they want to do given all the info. & options & that decision will be right for them, if THEY make it, until they change their mind, if they ever do.

If you're happy with your game, be happy.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think one could come up with many 'simple' scenarios.

I think if you use side spin out of habit rather than as a shot-by-shot choice you'll tend to overlook simple scenarios when they arise - thereby needlessly complicating shots that don't need it. I'm guilty of this myself.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I think one could come up with many 'simple' scenarios.

I think if you use side spin out of habit rather than as a shot-by-shot choice you'll tend to overlook simple scenarios when they arise - thereby complicating shots that don't need it.

I think this applies to anything you do out of habit - choosing a certain position route, for example. I'm guilty of this myself, and consciously practice taking "2nd choice" shots/routes to be sure I don't get too set in my ways.

pj
chgo

 

[ENGLISH!]

In theory, one would think it's true about using English only when you need to, but it doesn't work that way in real life. Spinners will spin balls. That's the reality of it. Their reality is the opposite ----- only use center ball when they absolutely have to.

You all may think it's ridiculous or that it doesn't make sense, but that's their style, and so many of them are absolutely brilliant at it.

Most of the time a pro will miss a shot in competition because he's not committed to it, not because he's trying to use spin.

Agreed...& as usual you have more insight than many.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I'm once again getting back into the game and haven't yet had the opportunity to play on the latest and greatest Simonis cloth and rubber, but back when I played more (in the 90s, early 00s), balls would just die if not hit with running English. And I played on nice Gold Crowns with Simonis down here in Francisco Galindo's pool room.

I know what you mean. I started 49 years ago @ 13 in the mid 60s on the older slower cloth & in New Orleans.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Originally Posted by ENGLISH! View Post
I think one could come up with many 'simple' scenarios.

I think if you use side spin out of habit rather than as a shot-by-shot choice you'll tend to overlook simple scenarios when they arise - thereby needlessly complicating shots that don't need it. I'm guilty of this myself.

pj
chgo

You're entitled to your opinion as is everyone.

What you see as needlessly complicating shots, I see as standard operating procedure. I wonder what Mr. Wilson's opinion is on the subject.

 

[FranCrimi]

I think if you use side spin out of habit rather than as a shot-by-shot choice you'll tend to overlook simple scenarios when they arise - thereby needlessly complicating shots that don't need it. I'm guilty of this myself.

pj
chgo

If you miss the shot or position, then you're right. It doesn't work for you.

If you are adept at it and you don't miss, then you're just being consistent with your stroke and style.

 

[FranCrimi]

And now she has lipstick all over her ass, thankyouverymuch.

pj <- won't Mr. Wilson be jealous?
chgo

Why would you consider agreeing with me and paying me a compliment, kissing my ass?

The only thing I've ever given to ENGLISH was the same civility I give to you.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Why would you consider agreeing with me and paying me a compliment, kissing my ass?

The only thing I've ever given to ENGLISH was the same civility I give to you.

Sorry Fran; it wasn't about you. Just poking English for his dual posting styles.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

If you miss the shot or position, then you're right. It doesn't work for you.

It's not about one shot, Fran; it's about shooting at your most consistent over many shots and many matches. For you it might only mean missing 1 more shot out of 100 - but it's still worse than you might do otherwise, and 1/100 matters more at your level.

pj
chgo

 

[Ron Swanson]

That's interesting, Ron.

When you say center is not easy, do you mean hitting center axis or playing the game successfully while hitting the center axis?

I mean as i said, mastery of centre ball is difficult. If you can put the ball anywhere on the table without side spin, you're formidable.

Spin for show, centre for dough.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Sorry Fran; it wasn't about you. Just poking English for his dual posting styles.

pj
chgo