Centerball...haters gonna hate

[Neil]

What you are saying is that if I need to go two rails out of the corner for instance, the classic 9 ball shot where you hit a ball with low outside to go 2 rails and through the center of the table, I get more movement out of the ball with just low at the same speed? That's terrific, I'm really learning something here. Likewise I have to hit harder with running english than with just top or bottom? Fantastic. Whatever will you say next?

Most 9 and 10 ball shots will have the cueball hit rails. Notice, I did not say all. Rails slow the ball down. Adding running english gives you more speed out from the rail. More speed equals more movement. So a relaxed shot with top and running english will move further than a shot with the same speed with top, as long as a rail is contacted. With sidespin the spin does the work, and you can shoot softer on many shots. That is my contention. What is yours?

Oh, and I could not give a flying f..what you think about my playing ability, just though I'd mention it in case it wasn't clear.

What is with you? You can't understand what is written or what? Why on earth would you make a statement like in your first paragraph? Really, we say that one shouldn't use english unless necessary, and here you are giving a necessary example to use english and stating that we say it shouldn't be used.?????? Do you just like making crap up to argue or what? Geesh....

And, by the way, I don't care that you think I don't know how to use english, and that I must be a low level player because I prefer to minimize english. Guess it's fine when you insult others, but stings when you get it back, huh?

 

[ENGLISH!]

What is with you? You can't understand what is written or what? Why on earth would you make a statement like in your first paragraph? Really, we say that one shouldn't use english unless necessary, and here you are giving a necessary example to use english and stating that we say it shouldn't be used.?????? Do you just like making crap up to argue or what? Geesh....

And, by the way, I don't care that you think I don't know how to use english, and that I must be a low level player because I prefer to minimize english. Guess it's fine when you insult others, but stings when you get it back, huh?

You're beyond hope. You're like someone tripping on drugs. Did you do any LSD back in the day? You're also like a mosquitoe that is not really capable of doing any real damage but is just aggravating as can be.

 

[Neil]

You're beyond hope. You're like someone tripping on drugs. Did you do any LSD back in the day? You're also like a mosquitoe that is not really capable of doing any real damage but is just aggravating as can be.

You looking for another ban?

 

[Straightpool_99]

What is with you? You can't understand what is written or what? Why on earth would you make a statement like in your first paragraph? Really, we say that one shouldn't use english unless necessary, and here you are giving a necessary example to use english and stating that we say it shouldn't be used.?????? Do you just like making crap up to argue or what? Geesh....

And, by the way, I don't care that you think I don't know how to use english, and that I must be a low level player because I prefer to minimize english. Guess it's fine when you insult others, but stings when you get it back, huh?

"When sticking near the vertical axis, the cue ball does all the work." This is the post I responded to. I said it was completely opposite of the truth. What I said was that when you stay at the vertical center, generally you need to shoot harder for the same amount of cueball movement. So in fact you have to do more work. You said I was wrong. Then I wrote the post you responded to. I wrote the first paragraph in my latest post to show reasonable examples of how english works, and how denying the truth of my statement leads to absurd conclusions. Do you agree with this sequence of events?

Also I'm not insulted in the slightest. I just find it laughable to have to type out this common sense knowledge. I cannot fathom anyone in their right mind who would actually disagree with this. I have never said anything about your playing ability, and in fact I don't know you, have never seen you play and could not care less. I did see an instructional video you did about the 90/90 pivot, I liked it. That is the extent of my knowledge of you and frankly after your latest posts I'm quite content to keep it that way.

 

[ENGLISH!]

The previous serious of posts is an example of why good guys like Mijary Mike & others no longer frequent AZB with the frequency that they use to do. I think it is also the reason why Straightpool_99, not too long ago, considered leaving AZB altogether & I can only hope that I played a small part in persuading him to stay. If so, perhaps I did him a mis-service.

Too much trolling & killing of good discussions. It just becomes not worth it anymore to have to either deal with it or put up with it.

Oh, & then there are the pros that won't post here either.

Even CJ with his Crocodile Skin has left.

Some simply do not understand that it is as much about civility as it is about the facts or lack of them.

Civility should be the main concern & cloaking incivility within the rules of the site should NOT be condoned.

Everyone have a Good Evening.

I'm Logging Out!

 

[Neil]

The previous serious of posts is an example of why good guys like Mijary Mike & others no longer frequent AZB with the frequency that they use to do.

Too much trolling & killing of good discussions. It just becomes not worth it anymore to have to either deal with or put up with it.

Oh, & then there are the pros that won't post here either.

Even CJ with his Crocodile Skin has left.

Some simply do not understand that it is as much about civility as it is about the facts or lack of them.

Civility should be the main concern & cloaking incivility within the rules of the site should NOT be condoned.

Everyone have a Good Evening.

You have a lot of gall talking about civility, especially after your other post to me. Funny how you and others feel free to say any nonsense you want to, but when someone responds to it in like manner, you pull crap like your post above.

 

[Neil]

"When sticking near the vertical axis, the cue ball does all the work." This is the post I responded to. I said it was completely opposite of the truth. What I said was that when you stay at the vertical center, generally you need to shoot harder for the same amount of cueball movement. So in fact you have to do more work. You said I was wrong. Then I wrote the post you responded to. I wrote the first paragraph in my latest post to show reasonable examples of how english works, and how denying the truth of my statement leads to absurd conclusions. Do you agree with this sequence of events?

Also I'm not insulted in the slightest. I just find it laughable to have to type out this common sense knowledge. I cannot fathom anyone in their right mind who would actually disagree with this. I have never said anything about your playing ability, and in fact I don't know you, have never seen you play and could not care less. I did see an instructional video you did about the 90/90 pivot, I liked it. That is the extent of my knowledge of you and frankly after your latest posts I'm quite content to keep it that way.

And I find it equally laughable that you can't seem to understand what is actually written. Several people have said that lately. We say to use english only when necessary, you then give an example where it is necessary, and chide us for not using it where we actually would use it. That is what makes no sense at all. It's like you pick a side, and then don't even bother to hear what the other side says, you just make up stuff to be against them.

You sit there and call others names, belittle them, and then when they respond, you don't want to hear anymore. Typical. Same to ya.

 

[Straightpool_99]

And I find it equally laughable that you can't seem to understand what is actually written. Several people have said that lately. We say to use english only when necessary, you then give an example where it is necessary, and chide us for not using it where we actually would use it. That is what makes no sense at all. It's like you pick a side, and then don't even bother to hear what the other side says, you just make up stuff to be against them.

You sit there and call others names, belittle them, and then when they respond, you don't want to hear anymore. Typical. Same to ya.

I was wrong, this is actually funny now. Would you care to explain in what way this statement should be interpreted:
"When sticking near the vertical axis, the cue ball does all the work". Apparently I'm a bit slow, because I fail to see any reasonable interpretation, other than the one I presented. You'll have to forgive me, english is my second language (more like third, actually), so some subtleties do escape my comprehension at times. Would you care to enlighten me?

 

[Jaden]

I'm done discussing this with you...

No, Jaden, YOU are the one with the reading comprehension problem. You have had it explained to you a number of times, and like I said previously, you still don't get it, and won't get. You have your mind made up, and that's it for you, period. You can't see logic anymore because of it.

Saying it is rarely the best option just because you know how to spin the ball is absurd at best. The only reason to spin the ball when you don't need to is because you want to. Just because you want to spin it doesn't make it the best choice by a long shot.

And, your and a few others opinion that those that prefer to stay close to center ball can't use english when desired or needed is just ignorant. You guys and gals are just to stubborn to actually have an open mind and learn something. So be it. Have fun with your games.

I've pointed out several instances where it IS beneficial to use it when it isn't necessary, where it opens up shots that aren't otherwise there.

Go on staying next to center and don't improve or learn anything... feel free.

Jaden

 

[Neil]

I've pointed out several instances where it IS beneficial to use it when it isn't necessary, where it opens up shots that aren't otherwise there.

Go on staying next to center and don't improve or learn anything... feel free.

Jaden

If it opens up a shot that wasn't there without it, then it is necessary, isn't it? Also, where do you get that I wouldn't learn anything? Especially after I posted that one should learn ALL parts of the cb in practice?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...a relaxed shot with top and running english will move further than a shot with the same speed with top, as long as a rail is contacted. With sidespin the spin does the work, and you can shoot softer on many shots.

This is true, and having to hit some non-spin shots harder is a factor to be weighed with the rest.

pj
chgo

 

[nick serdula]

Thank you

Ever since I've been playing pool most of the instructional material states that you should try to play shape so that you can hit centerball on every shot and float into position.

What's so great about hitting centerball? Is it just that you can see the tangent line easily? Anyone that has been playing this game for a while can just as easily see the follow line and draw line of the cue ball to predict it's path so that point is moot.

I think hitting centerball makes you more likely to miss the shot. If you try to hit centerball and miss by half a tip to the left or right you are throwing the shit out of the ball. And if you hit centerball on a 20 - 30 degree cut shot you are maximizing the cut induced throw effects which makes aiming more difficult.

I think Tor Lowry started the whole centerball craze and I just don't see what all the hype is about.

Playing position for you to use follow or draw seems much more effective.

So why does everyone like centerball so much?

The best play center ball. They also never hit the Cue ball in the center. You sound very confused. This should help. Take up golf.
Center ball stroke? Deadly accurate. Hit where you aim every time. Your short fall probably involves speed. That is what separates skill levels.

Nick

 

[Jaden]

no it isn't necessary, it's an option...

If it opens up a shot that wasn't there without it, then it is necessary, isn't it? Also, where do you get that I wouldn't learn anything? Especially after I posted that one should learn ALL parts of the cb in practice?

This wouldn't even be a discussion if you had said, use spin when it's the right shot.

You guys said to stay away from spin when it isn't necessary and/or to use center ball axis when possible.

You're playing the sky is blue, no the sky is black, yeah that's what I said the sky is black argument.

When it becomes apparent that you aren't correct, you say that's what I said...

No, that's NOT what you said. You said, unless necessary. I'm saying that when it would be perfectly acceptable to use center axis, there are often better options that being able to use side spin afford you.

Jaden

 

[Neil]

This wouldn't even be a discussion if you had said, use spin when it's the right shot.

You guys said to stay away from spin when it isn't necessary and/or to use center ball axis when possible.

You're playing the sky is blue, no the sky is black, yeah that's what I said the sky is black argument.

When it becomes apparent that you aren't correct, you say that's what I said...

No, that's NOT what you said. You said, unless necessary. I'm saying that when it would be perfectly acceptable to use center axis, there are often better options that being able to use side spin afford you.

Jaden

What we have been saying all along, is that if the shot can be done without english, there is no need to use english.

If we say to stay on or near center axis except when necessary to use english, simple deduction then means to use english when it is necessary. We haven't changed our tune at all. It your side saying that stay near center axis except when necessary must mean to never use english.

All myself, Pat, and a number of others have been saying all along, is that it is better to stay nearer the center axis than to use spin on every shot. You know BHE, and have it worked out good for you. I have my own way of compensating for deflection and throw. Both work good for us. Most have no clue about how to properly compensate.

But far too many use english on every shot, no matter what. Rick is a prime example. They don't even know what can be accomplished staying near the center axis. And, likewise, have no clue how much their games can improve if they learn how to do it.

Many of the top players today, and some from yesteryears, advocate the same thing. Why some of you want to dismiss them completely is beyond me. Anyways, I'm done with this thread. Have a good night.

 

[nick serdula]

One other thing

Most players miss because they do not address the ball. Every time. Also spin is how money players force balls to drop in the hole. Great players loose to money players simply by not using the spin on the object ball to open pockets up. WE call it to go stuff.
Center ball relates especially to developing a deadly accurate stroke. Once you have that. You learn how to force the object ball to twist. A hair of spin with a good speed is all powerful especially when combined with a center ball stroke. Make everything you aim to make. Control the rock.
Heck of a game. Pooting shool.
Happy pocketing,
Nick

 

[WildWing]

This will get flamed, but centerball is for beginners, not advanced players.

By hitting very low on the cueball, and finishing off the stroke, you stabilize the path of the cueball, minimize the possibility of object ball skid, and you can either draw, stop, or even follow the cue ball, with the either a sharp, or drag type of stroke.

This is not original with me, but I follow it, as the one who taught it to me was about as good as anyone who played the game - Babe Cranfield. He used to tell me it had a "snowplow" effect on the cueball, to keep it on line, and avoid skid.

If you doubt, take a good look at some great players. Earl, Efren, Cowboy Jimmy Moore, Dallas West, Mike Sigel, to name a few. They favored the lower to extreme lower portion of the cueball, even if draw is not involved in the shot.

 

[ENGLISH!]

This was a total malfunction.

 

[Neil]

I know exactly what can be accomplished with ONLY a center axis hit & it is LESS than what can be accomplished with english or TOI.

That should be a simple fact that anyone with an ounce of common sense should be able to ascertain. I've not done the math but there are a certain number of locations that one can hit on the vertical axis. Now multiply what ever that is times 360 then minus 1 for the vertical axis.

That is how much more can be done by hitting OFF of the vertical axis that can not be done by hitting ON the vertical axis.

Just another BS strawman on your part. No one said that except you, and you are making up a claim that no one said, just so you can argue against it and imply that others have no common sense. Show me one post, anywhere, ever, on this forum that anyone claimed you can do more with center axis than you can without it.

By the way, common sense says it is less than 180. You can only hit one side of the cb, and you can't use all of it without a miscue.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I know exactly what can be accomplished with ONLY a center axis hit & it is MUCH MUCH LESS than what can be accomplished with english or even TOI.

That should be a simple fact that anyone with an ounce of common sense should be able to ascertain. I've not done the math but there are a certain number of tip locations that one can hit on the vertical axis. Now multiply what ever that is times 360 then minus 1 for the vertical axis.

THAT is how MUCH MORE can be done by hitting OFF of the vertical axis that can NOT be done by hitting ON the vertical axis. Now throw in the vertical changes in cue angles & it increases for both but for every increase on the vertical axis there are 359 more increases for hitting OFF of the vertical.

The decision on whether or not to learn english & how & when to use it is naturally up to each individual as it should be. One can stay painting by numbers or one can try to learn to create mini masterpieces. The choice is up to each individual.

I & others ENCOURAGE expanding ones game through ENCOURAGING THE USE OF ENGLISH, while others DISCOURAGE such by saying things that, on face value, without a long explanation as to what they say they mean, can only be taken as DISCOURAGING THE USE OF ENGLISH.

I & others like me hit on the center axis when the shot calls for it. In other words, when the shot can not be enhanced with the use of some form of english. Almost all shots can be enhanced in some way by the use of some form of english. So... I am hitting almost all shots with some form of english to enhance that shot on the table & the next one or maybe even one 5 or 6 shots down the line.

One can not do what they do not know how to do & one can not do well what they know how to do if they ONLY do it rarely. Practice is one thing & playing is another.

In all sports they have been & are great practice players that just can't play well in a real game. Then there are those that don't practice well but play very or extremely well in the game. They are called players. One can try to be a good 'practicer' or one can try to be a player.

It's up to each individual as it should be.

Later in my working career I got into sales, I was what I would call an honest 'salesman'. I sometimes actually refused to sell to people that I felt did not fully understand what it was that they were 'buying'. In other words, I wanted them to buy from me rather than me sell them.

I can honestly tell you that there are a few individuals on AZB that I would not spend a penny with on buying what they are trying to sell.

To each their own & may everyone have the success that they want.

 

[ENGLISH!]

what we have been saying all along, is that if the shot can be done without english, there is no need to use english.

If we say to stay on or near center axis except when necessary to use english, simple deduction then means to use english when it is necessary. We haven't changed our tune at all. It your side saying that stay near center axis except when necessary must mean to never use english.

All myself, pat, and a number of others have been saying all along, is that it is better to stay nearer the center axis than to use spin on every shot. You know bhe, and have it worked out good for you. I have my own way of compensating for deflection and throw. Both work good for us. Most have no clue about how to properly compensate.

But far too many use english on every shot, no matter what. Rick is a prime example. they don't even know what can be accomplished staying near the center axis. and, likewise, have no clue how much their games can improve if they learn how to do it.

Many of the top players today, and some from yesteryears, advocate the same thing. Why some of you want to dismiss them completely is beyond me. Anyways, i'm done with this thread. Have a good night.

Balderdash!