Certified instructors

So what does it take to be an “Instructor”. See Bob Jewett's outline for the “Recognized Instructor Course” http://www.sfbilliards.com/richandout.pdf. The applicant learns, “What to teach,” “How to teach it,” and “Course Organization.” This is accomplished by testing the applicant's ability and then presenting the materials for how to teach the basic course.

The “Basic Course” ( http://www.sfbilliards.com/basics.pdf) includes the following material: Cue selection, chalking, basic stance, sighting, and stroke mechanics. This is followed by an intro to Progressive Practice and a video analysis. A review of these outlines indicates that this is an organized approach to teaching people who desire to be a recognized instructor.

You cannot teach people to be good teachers. You can explain what is needed to be a good teacher, such as organization and how to interact with students as Jewett does in his workshop outline. You cannot instill what it takes to be a good teacher because these are basically personality characteristics that have to do with one's ability to manage interpersonal relations under specific circumstances. The management of interpersonal relations can be taught but it is far beyond what is taught here and is usually not learned in a classroom environment. We have all met state licensed teachers in middle school, high school and college who had years of experience wrecking young lives. A desire to be a teacher and the ability to teach are not the same thing, whether one is paid or unpaid. A teacher is a special kind of person with specific desires.

It is reasonably well known that success breeds success. Good teachers can point to their outstanding students and usually do not hesitate to do so. It has been shown that Nobel Prize winners are often the mentors for other Nobel Prize winners. And students are more than pleased to tell others the names of teachers and mentors who helped in their development. In my opinion an instructor who cannot tell you who his students are does not have any significant students. I can name the names of all of my significant teachers and most of my students who have gone on to positions of public importance. Among professional pool players it is not uncommon to hear them state from whom they learned. It can be concluded that often professional players are also not hesitant to identify their teachers and mentors.

The BCA and other organizations have designed certification programs for any of several reasons, not least of which is to help people make money by establishing a guild. There is nothing wrong with this, physicians and state certified teachers among others have established modern day guilds in which “unrecognized” people are pushed aside. In the high school arena a PhD chemist cannot teach a chemistry course because the chemist has not been state certified to teach high school. If you review what state certified teachers are required to learn it is not much different than what Jewett teaches with the addition of a practicum.

A review of what is taught in a basic pool workshop will show that the materials do not differ much from what is available in any of several books. Robert Bryne's works are among the best in this area. So why should a student pay $300.00 for the material readily available for about $15.00 in a book format (http://www.amazon.com/Byrnes-Standard-Book-Pool-Billiards/dp/0156005549). Let alone the idea that it is available for free in most libraries unless the “Instructor” can give good reason why the student should study with him or her.

The pool instructors certification programs are nothing more than an attempt to establish guilds until such time as they can show reasons why they are more than this. Some of the abrasive personalities on this forum who list themselves as certified instructors is a tribute to the idea that teaching skills cannot be easily taught.

In the interim, I simply ignore those who claim to be a pool instructor because they have paid for some course of instruction until they can demonstrate that they are indeed real teachers.

As the saying goes on this section, I am not a pool instructor, but I am a retired Professor :eek:

I agree to a certain extent, Joe. I was frustrated by the inabilities of my earliest teachers to communicate to me when I was learning to play. It took me all that much longer to progress because I spent half the time trying to read between the lines and discover what exactly they were trying to say. They were right off the streets, some were pool hustlers. They also didn't hear me when I asked questions. Their answers had very little to do with what I was asking.

That's the main reason why I started to teach. It was because I felt I had the knack for communicating and wanted to help other aspiring players, so they didn't have to go through what I went through.

The credential didn't make me a better teacher but the courses I took did help give me food for thought, which is always a good thing.

But now when I train an instructor, I spend a lot of time discussing the personalities of the people they will be encountering and how they reveal themselves by the way they play pool. A good teacher will recognize the subconscious signs a student is giving them. That is what I work on with the teachers who take my course. While this may come naturally to some, it is a trait that can be developed and improved on over time.

I think that due to my experience and observations of people over the years I've been teaching that I do help people to become better teachers.

And at least I know I give them food for thought. I also think I'm not the only one in the BCA program who helps aspiring instructors in that way, which is why I think that the program can be a good thing.
 
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Donny L, I don't know if teaching skills are nature or nurture. I suspect it is a little of each. I have seen people learn to be good teachers with mentoring so it can be a learned skill. However, I think that some people are natural teachers and they are the one's who stay in the field.

I think some of the best teachers are not found in teaching environments. I have seen cops, psychologists and others who are life long teachers but prefer to work in the field with one or two students always tagging along.

Some people just have the knack and the willingness to help others learn. It sounds like Fran C may be one of those people.

After many years as both student and teacher I have come to the opinion that good teachers are not in it for the money. They may make a good living but money is secondary.
 
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I
And at least I know I give them food for thought. I also think I'm not the only one in the BCA program who helps aspiring instructors in that way, which is why I think that the program can be a good thing.

I too think it can be a good thing but like most endeavors of this type that take decades to build there is the problem of numbers. You need enough people to establish the program and this, unfortunately, requires people who are in it for the money. As the program is better accepted you then need to weed out the people in it for the wrong reasons.

I think that most disciplines have found that setting more stringent requirements over time is the solution. This has to be a trade off with public relations, numbers of instructors, and quality of the training.

To some extent I think there is a certain amount of self selection. In this case if the monetary profits are kept within reason the profession can grow.
 
Can you explain what the BCA teaching format is? I'm not familiar with it and would like to know if maybe I missed that memo.


Hi Fran,

You might have to contact Master Instructor Bob Radford at CUE-U. I taught there for several years for him, and there were only one way to do things at his place, such as stance including which way your feet point, ball address, grip, set position, number of practice strokes, pause, finish, aiming, jumping, etc.,etc.

So, it could be his "way" of doing things, or what he and others decided on how to teach the BCA "way". I believe he was on the instructor committee for many years at the BCA. And I recall him telling us that the BCA had a set way to teach to be consistent. Which I still believe they all use the Set, Pause and Finish techniques... so there has to be some truth to the "consistency" message....

Of course, NOBODY has ever accused Bob Radford of being very flexible :) just the way he rolls...

It took me some time and effort to realize you cannot follow a set pattern for everybody, and if some folks don't want to only do 3 pratice strokes, then go ahead and do an extra one if you don't think you are ready to pull the trigger...

So while I might agree with about 80% of what I was taught by a Master BCA instructor, I have added or changed about 20% for "real" world use ...

And again, this is strictly speaking about ONE Master Instructor, and how he rolls. It does NOT mean that any others follow the script tooth and nail, and I'm guessing many do not......but I do believe there was some sort of "BCA Way" a long time ago which might be by the wayside now.....
 
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Hi Fran,

You might have to contact Master Instructor Bob Radford at CUE-U. I taught there for several years for him, and there were only one way to do things at his place, such as stance including which way your feet point, ball address, grip, set position, number of practice strokes, pause, finish, aiming, jumping, etc.,etc.

So, it could be his "way" of doing things, or what he and others decided on how to teach the BCA "way". I believe he was on the instructor committee for many years at the BCA. And I recall him telling us that the BCA had a set way to teach to be consistent. Which I still believe they all use the Set, Pause and Finish techniques... so there has to be some truth to the "consistency" message....

Of course, NOBODY has ever accused Bob Radford of being very flexible :) just the way he rolls...

It took me some time and effort to realize you cannot follow a set pattern for everybody, and if some folks don't want to only do 3 pratice strokes, then go ahead and do an extra one if you don't think you are ready to pull the trigger...

So while I might agree with about 80% of what I was taught by a Master BCA instructor, I have added or changed about 20% for "real" world use ...

And again, this is strictly speaking about ONE Master Instructor, and how he rolls. It does NOT mean that any others follow the script tooth and nail, and I'm guessing many do not......but I do believe there was some sort of "BCA Way" a long time ago which might be by the wayside now.....

Thanks for the info, RJ. Bob was, and I'm sure still is, definitely an advocate of the BCA not dictating how to teach pool and how to train instructors, so I'm sure that what he taught in his class was his way.

BTW, if you walked away agreeing with and still use 80% I would be impressed by his training technique. I think that's an impressive percentage.
 
Yes!

Donny L, I don't know if teaching skills are nature or nurture. I suspect it is a little of each. I have seen people learn to be good teachers with mentoring so it can be a learned skill. However, I think that some people are natural teachers and they are the one's who stay in the field.

I think some of the best teachers are not found in teaching environments. I have seen cops, psychologists and others who are life long teachers but prefer to work in the field with one or two students always tagging along.

Some people just have the knack and the willingness to help others learn. It sounds like Fran C may be one of those people.

After many years as both student and teacher I have come to the opinion that good teachers are not in it for the money. They may make a good living but money is secondary.

Yes, I agree completely. Kind of thought we were really on the same page.
 
Thanks for the info, RJ. Bob was, and I'm sure still is, definitely an advocate of the BCA not dictating how to teach pool and how to train instructors, so I'm sure that what he taught in his class was his way.

BTW, if you walked away agreeing with and still use 80% I would be impressed by his training technique. I think that's an impressive percentage.

Yeah, learned a lot to say the least... It was not until I trained with Stan Shuffet to learn to tweak a few more things. He made me a better player and a better instructor.

I still had both feet pointing straight forward towards the table, and he asked me if it was comfortable, and I said, not at first, but I got use to it after about the second or third year :)

He finally had me put my foot in its natural alignment for my body type, and he was the one who convinced me not to be so "inflexible" with certain things like grip, stance, practice strokes, and just worry about that repeatable stroke regardless if someones back knee is bent or straight.... cause in the end, that is really what matters to be a consistent player.....

So, that is why I take lessons from everyone to learn a few more things to add to "my way"..... Worked with Tom Simpson, Earl, Varner, and Buddy as well !!!

Mark Wilson is next on my list since he's only about 5 hours away.......
 
Thanks for the info, RJ. Bob was, and I'm sure still is, definitely an advocate of the BCA not dictating how to teach pool and how to train instructors, so I'm sure that what he taught in his class was his way.

BTW, if you walked away agreeing with and still use 80% I would be impressed by his training technique. I think that's an impressive percentage.

Hi Fran,

I'm a bit confused. Are the BCA & the PBIA the same or different certification programs?

Regarding the time, travel, & money issues previously mentioned, would it be feasible to develope an on-line less costly training program for initial certification possibly called a 'primary level one certification'. After that one would go through one on one training with higher certified instructors to obtain higher certifications. Just an off the top of my head 'idea'. Not really well thought out at all.

Best Regards,
 
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Hi Fran,

I'm a bit confused. Are the BCA & the PBIA the same or different certification programs?

Regarding the time, travel, & money issues previously mentioned, would it be feasible to develope an on-line less costly training program for initial certification possibly called a 'primary level one certification'. After that one would go through one on one training with higher certified instructors to obtain higher certifications. Just an off the top of my head 'idea'. Not really well thought out at all.

Best Regards,

Hi Rick,

Yes, the PBIA is the newer name for the BCA program. Still run by the same group.

By level one, I guess you would be referring to Recognized level in our program. I don't know if an online course would work well for training instructors. This is not just book learning. There is performance involved here.

Regarding cost, people who come to me will get more than their money's worth, and I won't discuss my fees here, but I won't give away all of my hard earned years of experience for a pittance just because someone believes a course should be what they feel is 'more reasonable'.
 
Hi Rick,

Yes, the PBIA is the newer name for the BCA program. Still run by the same group.

By level one, I guess you would be referring to Recognized level in our program. I don't know if an online course would work well for training instructors. This is not just book learning. There is performance involved here.

Regarding cost, people who come to me will get more than their money's worth, and I won't discuss my fees here, but I won't give away all of my hard earned years of experience for a pittance just because someone believes a course should be what they feel is 'more reasonable'.

Fran,

I hear you. Compensation should always be commensurate with the quality of the goods or services recieved.

Best Regards,
 
Hats of to all who have posted to this thread

I'm not an instructor but i tune in to this part of the board pretty often. I must say that it's nice to make it through all the post in a thread without seeing personal attacks and childish sarcastic comments. Its real nice to read a thread that has made it so far without going of on a tangent. A spirited debate that has stayed above the belt. Hats of to all involved.
 
Reasonable Costs

Hi Rick,

Yes, the PBIA is the newer name for the BCA program. Still run by the same group.

By level one, I guess you would be referring to Recognized level in our program. I don't know if an online course would work well for training instructors. This is not just book learning. There is performance involved here.

Regarding cost, people who come to me will get more than their money's worth, and I won't discuss my fees here, but I won't give away all of my hard earned years of experience for a pittance just because someone believes a course should be what they feel is 'more reasonable'.

Just for the Record I am the someone who voiced his opinion that the cost to the first rung of the Certified Instructor Program PBIA is a tad unreasonable in cost and in my opinion detrimental to creating a solid foundation for pool because of it. I looked at my geographical area to determine that....so....it was an opinion...perhaps I am wrong. What would prove me wrong is the market....If youre doing the kind of business that you want to then my comments are little more than air, just saying. I did not diminish the quality of education in any way but I do promote simplicity in everything I do. Its easy to superimpose our own ideas on what we do and elevate our own importance above that of what is actually is and only one thing determines that....sales. If you are having a level of sales that you are happy with then my point is mute and I will be the first person to say that. I just want to make sure what I said isn't taken out of context. I believe you guys do a fine job. Do you really need to do it the way you do for 3 days incurring such cost to you personally just to get things off the ground?

Just another lovely day in paradise....

336Robin :thumbup:

aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
 
Just for the Record I am the someone who voiced his opinion that the cost to the first rung of the Certified Instructor Program PBIA is a tad unreasonable in cost and in my opinion detrimental to creating a solid foundation for pool because of it. I looked at my geographical area to determine that....so....it was an opinion...perhaps I am wrong. What would prove me wrong is the market....If youre doing the kind of business that you want to then my comments are little more than air, just saying. I did not diminish the quality of education in any way but I do promote simplicity in everything I do. Its easy to superimpose our own ideas on what we do and elevate our own importance above that of what is actually is and only one thing determines that....sales. If you are having a level of sales that you are happy with then my point is mute and I will be the first person to say that. I just want to make sure what I said isn't taken out of context. I believe you guys do a fine job.

Do you really need to do it the way you do for 3 days incurring such cost to you personally just to get things off the ground?

Just another lovely day in paradise....

336Robin :thumbup:

aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com



I find three days of training/teaching hardly enough time to get all points home.

336Robin, what do you have in mind? Our group is always open to good suggestions.

Thanks,
randyg
 
Just for the Record I am the someone who voiced his opinion that the cost to the first rung of the Certified Instructor Program PBIA is a tad unreasonable in cost and in my opinion detrimental to creating a solid foundation for pool because of it. I looked at my geographical area to determine that....so....it was an opinion...perhaps I am wrong. What would prove me wrong is the market....If youre doing the kind of business that you want to then my comments are little more than air, just saying. I did not diminish the quality of education in any way but I do promote simplicity in everything I do. Its easy to superimpose our own ideas on what we do and elevate our own importance above that of what is actually is and only one thing determines that....sales. If you are having a level of sales that you are happy with then my point is mute and I will be the first person to say that. I just want to make sure what I said isn't taken out of context. I believe you guys do a fine job. Do you really need to do it the way you do for 3 days incurring such cost to you personally just to get things off the ground?

Just another lovely day in paradise....

336Robin :thumbup:

aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com

Just so you know, there's no way I can pay my bills doing this and sure, I'd love to make more money, but I know from life experiences that selling yourself short never works out.

To address your question: Do you need a 3-day course to learn how to teach pool? How long do people have to study in school to become teachers? Years, right?

Most instructors who want to get certified have already been teaching for awhile, yet I can see their teaching flaws when they come for the course. The 3-day course isn't nearly enough to produce a quality instructor, but it will definitely help correct some of those flaws.
 
I find three days of training/teaching hardly enough time to get all points home.

336Robin, what do you have in mind? Our group is always open to good suggestions.

Thanks,
randyg

Randyg,
For one I am not the expert in training situations...hopefully that is you. What I suggest is that the first rung to recognized instructor be looked at with a different viewpoint which might change some things about the way you teach the course and how much it would take to deliver it so as to make it easier for a new instructor to be added to your ranks.

That is all I am saying. Its just a very costly expenditure with no guarantee of returns. In todays economy price matters a lot. Its not a good thing to say lets diminish the integrity of something, but our economy is dictating what is done. So paring back pieces of it that might not be as necessary or changing the way some of it is delivered might be a way to reduce costs to the trainers.

In an ideal world we should want all of the instruction we can get because we love pool and it shouldnt have anything to do with the money.

But....if we make something achieveable and we get Certified Instructors who are at least not doing harm out there actively instructing people who otherwise might not have any instruction, what are we doing? In my opinion we are creating an atmosphere where we are promoting the sport.

All I would ask you to do Randy is consider that. If you look at your market and you observe your sales and you are happy with that, then no adjustment needs to be made.

I am finding pool is a large living breathing thing and its largely unregulated which can be good, but its not great when we are the ones who are possibly getting in the way of its promotion at the grassroots level in the very, very beginnings.

I am very happy to reply to your question, but since I know absolutely nothing about what you teach in 3 days time, I cannot suggest what is more important and what is less important. All I can do is give you my impression of the program and my first impression is its a very exclusive club due to price of the cost of being a certified instructor and I would hope that due to the mission of the club that maybe someone would take a look at including more of us in it. I would hope more people would want to be just as dedicated and proud to be instructors as the staff you currently have. It might even be that once inducted you might find some new shining stars who would be reach to take the ring and further your lifes work and maybe money should not be such a deterrent. As for me and what I can afford that has nothing to do with my complaint. I think this is something that leadership needs to ponder and revisit after some time and careful consideration, until a clear answer is found. If sales are going well then just say..hey sales are great, you guys have a nice day and Im happy and no further discussion is needed.

336Robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com
 
Randyg,
For one I am not the expert in training situations...hopefully that is you. What I suggest is that the first rung to recognized instructor be looked at with a different viewpoint which might change some things about the way you teach the course and how much it would take to deliver it so as to make it easier for a new instructor to be added to your ranks.

That is all I am saying. Its just a very costly expenditure with no guarantee of returns. In todays economy price matters a lot. Its not a good thing to say lets diminish the integrity of something, but our economy is dictating what is done. So paring back pieces of it that might not be as necessary or changing the way some of it is delivered might be a way to reduce costs to the trainers.

In an ideal world we should want all of the instruction we can get because we love pool and it shouldnt have anything to do with the money.

But....if we make something achieveable and we get Certified Instructors who are at least not doing harm out there actively instructing people who otherwise might not have any instruction, what are we doing? In my opinion we are creating an atmosphere where we are promoting the sport.

All I would ask you to do Randy is consider that. If you look at your market and you observe your sales and you are happy with that, then no adjustment needs to be made.

I am finding pool is a large living breathing thing and its largely unregulated which can be good, but its not great when we are the ones who are possibly getting in the way of its promotion at the grassroots level in the very, very beginnings.

I am very happy to reply to your question, but since I know absolutely nothing about what you teach in 3 days time, I cannot suggest what is more important and what is less important. All I can do is give you my impression of the program and my first impression is its a very exclusive club due to price of the cost of being a certified instructor and I would hope that due to the mission of the club that maybe someone would take a look at including more of us in it. I would hope more people would want to be just as dedicated and proud to be instructors as the staff you currently have. It might even be that once inducted you might find some new shining stars who would be reach to take the ring and further your lifes work and maybe money should not be such a deterrent. As for me and what I can afford that has nothing to do with my complaint. I think this is something that leadership needs to ponder and revisit after some time and careful consideration, until a clear answer is found. If sales are going well then just say..hey sales are great, you guys have a nice day and Im happy and no further discussion is needed.

336Robin :thumbup:
aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com

Then just hang out a shingle, and get some students. Nobody here said you have to be certified. I mention before that I was a HS baseball coach, current coach of my son's Pony League team and managed most of my softball and baseball teams I played on during the last 30 some years. Not one piece of paper says I'm certified to "coach" baseball.....

Of course, I never got paid one red cent for all of my coaching, including at the HS level, but I just love the game of baseball. If you love pool, start teaching it, start with some newbies and work your way up. Maybe you make enough bucks to fly to one of the 3-day schools....because they are worth it imho....and the more you learn, the more your students learn, and that really is the name of the game :)
 
Only someone who has not been through pool school would make a statement that it is not worth it, nor necessary to take 3 days to learn "it". Hundreds of students (and at least dozens of instructors) have been through the 3 day schools. NONE have reported that it was anything other than a terrific learning experience (at least not from our SPF schools).

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
Just Hang Out a Shingle

Then just hang out a shingle, and get some students. Nobody here said you have to be certified. I mention before that I was a HS baseball coach, current coach of my son's Pony League team and managed most of my softball and baseball teams I played on during the last 30 some years. Not one piece of paper says I'm certified to "coach" baseball.....

Of course, I never got paid one red cent for all of my coaching, including at the HS level, but I just love the game of baseball. If you love pool, start teaching it, start with some newbies and work your way up. Maybe you make enough bucks to fly to one of the 3-day schools....because they are worth it imho....and the more you learn, the more your students learn, and that really is the name of the game :)

ChiagoRJ,
Your point is well taken and certainly we all have given a lot to pool as well as other avenues of our lives. Im not new to the idea of sacrificing for something I love to do. I am glad you feel the same. All I am saying is this......maybe not everyone feels this way about pool. Maybe its in the best interest of Pool that these at large Instructors recieve a little education and actually be backed the organization that governs pool for a price that isnt exclusive of normal people to be able to make sense of financially. It might even be good if they took in money from more people other that a few elite Instructors. If maintaining a very high level of excellence is paramount among the ranks of Certified Instruction Schools to the point that you would suggest that well no one says you cant hang out a shingle and start teaching pool lessons...well youre right...I know this already. I would just like to see us cover more of the bases within an organized fashion than we would if we just willy nilly started having instructors printing out documents and going by syllabus's that others have written and go to teaching. In truth I dont need anything from anyone to teach pool and If I do okay, I also have no reason to ever attend a Pool School. I play pretty good and understand how I do everything I do so if me going away and leaving you guys alone is what you would rather me do then fine. I have no problem with it at all. Enjoy your position at the top. I just thought perhaps another view point might need to be considered but you know...its all good. I love the game but I also like to pay the bills. If I worried about the bills less. Maybe I would think about instructing pool. I do have other things I do that pay a whole lot more money. I can just keep pool as a past time. Playing is much more fun.

Just another lovely day in paradise....

Badges? We don't need no Stinking Badges!

336Robin :thumbup:

aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com

 
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Word Twisting...

Only someone who has not been through pool school would make a statement that it is not worth it, nor necessary to take 3 days to learn "it". Hundreds of students (and at least dozens of instructors) have been through the 3 day schools. NONE have reported that it was anything other than a terrific learning experience (at least not from our SPF schools).

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Mr. Lee,
I do not doubt that the school is a wonderful experience. I just would like to see more people become certified and go out there and teach. I actually think it would be a good thing for the sport. At this point you guys are turning me completely off. I do not like to have my words twisted when my intent is perfectly understandable. Enjoy your success and your large classes full of students. I can tell my opinions are best kept to myself no one seems understand them. I would probably be happy If Id paid what you guys have to get your credentials myself..

Just another lovely day in paradise.....

Badges? We don't need no Stinking Badges!

336Robin :thumbup:

aimisthegameinpool.com
aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com

 
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336robin.

I understand now, it's all about the money.

Have a fine Holiday Season,
randyg
 
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