Chang - Foul or Not?

[AtLarge]

... Reminds me when a foul is called on a player for letting go of their cue while laying it on the table during their turn - it’s the rule although you rarely see it called.

That's not really how the WPA rule reads:

6.12 Cue Stick on the Table​

​

If the shooter uses his cue stick in order to align a shot by placing it on the table without having a hand on the stick, it is a foul.​

​

From what it says, I'd say it would not be a foul to place the cue on the table, for example, to tie your shoes or during a timeout, providing it is clear that you aren't also trying "to align a shot."

 

[straightline]

That's not really how the WPA rule reads:

6.12 Cue Stick on the Table​

​

If the shooter uses his cue stick in order to align a shot by placing it on the table without​

having a hand on the stick, it is a foul.​

Dumb rule. Would not defy but would not adopt for matching up.

 

[AtLarge]

Dumb rule. Would not defy but would not adopt for matching up.

straightline -- I just added some explanatory text to my post.

 

[Flakeandrun]

It’s not that different from the time Kristina Zlateva was down on Tyler Styer in the 9-ball World Pool Championship and pocketed the nine. Then reached into the pocket, grabbed some balls, threw them on the table, and one hit the cueball before it was done moving. Yes the cueball wasn’t going to scratch. All sportsmanship would have let it go. But in that arena the ref needs to be nitty. Foul called. 9 spot up. Ball in hand. When you are a pro in a world championship with a ref present, you need to act like you’ve been there before. These things shouldn’t be a surprise.

Add clarity... that's what's needed. Clearer ruling to avoid ambiguity.

Actually had a situation happen to me on the weekend in a tournament I was playing - the guy pocketed the 6, also pocketed the 9, and scratched the white into the pocket. I assumed I had won the frame, and moved the balls back to re-rack... didn't know the 9 gets re-spotted in that situation, and I still had the 7, 8 and 9... I lost the frame... had to take it on the chin.

Players meetings and reading the rules is important...

Having a sense of humour is important...

I'd say in the case of Chang, I feel a bit sorry for him given how unclear and open to interpretation the ruling is/is worded... I feel he could have kicked up a huge fuss... so kudos to him for taking it pretty well.

 

[straightline]

straightline -- I just added some explanatory text to my post.

I get it. I consider the premise that you shouldn't aim - dumb. Keith Mcready would do that - leave the stick on the shot and pick it up from the side of the table and stroke it. (never saw it, just heard about it) naturally, I immediately adopted it. Gave me invaluable footing on pool fundamentals.
Blind and pool don't mix. lol...

 

[skogstokig]

how about having the rule say that cue tip cannot contact the ball while positioning it? ditch the forward stroke definition entirely

 

[AtLarge]

how about having the rule say that cue tip cannot contact the ball while positioning it? ditch the forward stroke definition entirely

Tough to distinguish between the ferrule and the sides of the tip.

 

[dquarasr]

Two points:

1-I understand the fact that as written the rule was violated and should have been called. An incredibly magnanimous gesture would have been for Filler to intentionally foul and return BIH because clearly Chang was not attempting a shot but of course Filler was 100% within his rights to take control of the table. In a league match I would consider doing that. In a tournament at any level, I really can’t predict what I would do especially given the event was a team competition and I would owe it to my team to do all I can to win.

2-Did you notice the vastly different CB position Chang was attempting to set up for vs that which Filler used to get on the next ball?

 

[Cornerman]

It all boils down to the interpretation of exactly what "forward stroke motion" means. He did push the cue ball with the tip using a forward motion. While it's obvious he WAS positioning the ball and not shooting, the ref decided it resembled a forward stroke enough to call the foul. This will just be another one of those endless arguments over definitions.

Exactly. I was asked a few years ago by Ishaun Singh to help clarify the writing and language of the WPA rules. There are so many ambiguous and vague rules, and many rules questions that always come up that aren’t addressed. Having both a background in actually getting paid for technical writing and for creative writing, I think I’m more than qualified. This would have been one of the rules, and I would have proposed to make what Chang did to be not called a foul. Unfortunately, the WPA thing really didn’t pan out. But there is a group that supposed to look at these rules., So maybe we’ll have a better sit in the future.

 

[straightline]

right, so they should make it clearer - if we can obviously see he was positioning the ball, then the definition needs to be made clearer for what is acceptable. If world class pros are making such a mistake... then obviously it needs looking at...
He's literally stood up, one handed...

how about having the rule say that cue tip cannot contact the ball while positioning it? ditch the forward stroke definition entirely

How about they get officials who can distinguish between a shooting stroke/stance and a positioning gesture.

 

[Cornerman]

Without an explicit WPA definition of “forward stroke” available, I personally adopt the CSI definition of a legal stroke to apply as the WPA definition of a forward stroke.View attachment 727443

And I personally interpret the intention of the rule to be that any motion that would be acceptable for executing a shot must not be used to position the cueball.

IIRC, this rule and graphic was specifically to address what a “forward stroke” direction is due to the tip lift shot. Many people questioned why the tip lift was illegal and a massé wasnt. CSI had to the graphically describe the direction of a stroke wrt the axis of the stick. Many internet players thought that maybe “forward” was with respect to the player’s body

 

[MattPoland]

IIRC, this rule and graphic was specifically to address what a “forward stroke” direction is due to the tip lift shot. Many people questioned why the tip lift was illegal and a massé wasnt. CSI had to the graphically describe the direction of a stroke wrt the axis of the stick. Many internet players thought that maybe “forward” was with respect to the player’s body

It does serve that purpose in that lifting the cue is not a legal stroke because it is not a forward motion along the long axis of the cue. But they did create an applied ruling and an addition graphic to specifically address the tip lift shot that you might be thinking of.

 

[Monti]

It’s not that different from the time Kristina Zlateva was down on Tyler Styer in the 9-ball World Pool ..

No wonder Tyler likes those Russian girls!

 

[easy-e]

When you're playing in a "World Championship" with a referee, you should never think it's ok to play by the "spirit of the rules".

 

[Rocket354]

Correct call. Never seen a pro do that before anywhere but the practice table. Shocking to say the least. Leyman earned my respect.

 

[FeelDaShot]

I'm surprised this is even debatable. This is 100% a foul. You can roll the cue ball around with the ferrule all day long but you can never use the tip to poke at the cue ball like he did. This is common practice everywhere. Absolutely no question.

 

[garczar]

You guys would have been in a lot of fights where i grew up. There's the literate rule itself and this long lost thing called 'common sense'. Anyone with half-a-brain would know this was no foul. Think he was playing a shot?? Rule needs to be re-done as said above saying 'no tip contact' or something. I still say its nitty as fk.

 

[King T]

Like they say in the mob......why take a chance?

He's a gambler and he didn't consider this taking a chance. Its just a habit, a natural thing done in practice sessions and when gambling. No one ever calls it when gambling unless you want to lose all your Action and 99.999% of the time its not called in tournament play either.

 

[garczar]

He's a gambler and he didn't consider this taking a chance. Its just a habit, a natural thing done in practice sessions and when gambling. No one ever calls it when gambling unless you want to lose all your Action and 99.999% of the time its not called in tournament play either.

ding-ding. We have a winner. Agree 100% brother.

 

[easy-e]

You guys would have been in a lot of fights where i grew up. There's the literate rule itself and this long lost thing called 'common sense'. Anyone with half-a-brain would know this was no foul. Think he was playing a shot?? Rule needs to be re-done as said above saying 'no tip contact' or something. I still say its nitty as fk.

For the record, I believe most of the people saying "foul" would never call this if they were gambling with someone. The fact that it's a world championship with a referee is what makes it an obvious foul. Intentions don't mean anything. I would never call this foul playing at my local pool room.